Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

I want to beat this dead horse a little more and do a point-by-point comparison of the proposed standards for cream and golden crele male color.

The places I see people looking to determine cream vs. gold are generally the hackle, saddle, and shoulder but rarely do I see folks mention the wings and I think the "wing triangle" where the secondary feathers are visible in a standing bird are probably the single best indicator.

Head:
Plumage, cream and gray.
Plumage, gold or straw and gray, should match the crest.


Crest:
Cream and gray, some chestnut permissible.
Gold and gray barred, chestnut permissible.


Neck:
Hackle—cream, sparsely barred with gray.
Hackle—Gold, sparsely barred with gray, chestnut permissible. Color intensity decreases from head to body.
Shoulder—cream, barred with dark gray, some chestnut permissible.
Shoulder—gold, barred with dark gray, chestnut permissible.

Back:
Cream, barred with dark gray, some chestnut permissible.
Gold, barred with dark gray, chestnut permissible.

Saddle:
cream, barred with dark gray, edged in cream.
gold, barred with orange and some dark gray, edged in gold, chestnut permissible.

Wings:

Fronts and Bows—
dark gray, faintly barred, some chestnut permissible.
dark gray, faintly barred, chestnut.

Coverts—
gray, barred, tipped in cream.
dark gray, barred, tipped in gold.

Primaries—

dark gray, faintly barred, small amounts of white permissible.
dark gray, faintly barred, small amounts of white permissible.

Secondaries—

dark gray, sparsely barred with gray intermixed with cream, some white permissible.
dark gray, sparsely barred with gray intermixed with gold, some white permissible.

Wing diagram for reference:

258742452_408165337608468_529663860493355495_n.jpg


Now let's look at your cockerel's wing, because I'm second-guessing myself.

Fronts and bows are about the same in both varieties except the cream says "some chestnut is permissible" rather than just saying "chestnut". I would say this bird has "some" chestnut, but it's also possible that some of the chestnut we're seeing (remember autosomal red is not affected by the IG gene) might actually be gold.

Coverts should be gray barred tipped in CREAM or tipped in GOLD, I think I'm just seeing gray barred all the way through the ends? So that's a toss-up.

Primaries are the same in both varieties so that's irrelevant to this.

Secondaries are either intermixed with GOLD or CREAM with some white permissible. There's a lot of white in the primaries on this bird, but when I look closely I do see a couple of spots of what possibly appears to be true gold rather than chestnut or diluted gold/cream, but I'm not really sure.


20211118_135245.jpg


Let's look at the neck and back:

20211118_135217.jpg


Head and crest should be CREAM and gray or GOLD or STRAW and gray... is that cream or straw? It's definitely not GOLD like the crele OEGB I posted earlier.

Now, hackle. It should be CREAM sparsely barred with gray or GOLD sparsely barred with gray, chestnut permissible, color intensity decreasing head to body. Again, this doesn't look like the OEGB I posted earlier, so is this color CREAM or GOLD? Looks visually pretty creamy and diluted to me compared to undiluted gold duckwing birds. Cream to me does NOT denote an absence of yellow tones, so I'd expect some of that even in a cream bird whereas the expectation seems to be that cream birds should have NO yellow tones at all in this area.

Moving back to the saddle which I think is often what trips folks up, lets consider the cream standard calls for "cream, barred with dark gray, edged in cream" and the golden crele standard says "gold, barred with orange and some dark gray, edged in gold, chestnut permissible." I don't see any chestnut in the saddle, and again we're forced to ask ourselves if "cream" means a full absence of yellow tones or not. That saddle does not look GOLD to me. It looks like diluted gold, similar to what you see in the Cream Light Brown Dutch bantam.

I hate this breed. :th
 
I want to beat this dead horse a little more and do a point-by-point comparison of the proposed standards for cream and golden crele male color.

The places I see people looking to determine cream vs. gold are generally the hackle, saddle, and shoulder but rarely do I see folks mention the wings and I think the "wing triangle" where the secondary feathers are visible in a standing bird are probably the single best indicator.

Head:
Plumage, cream and gray.
Plumage, gold or straw and gray, should match the crest.


Crest:
Cream and gray, some chestnut permissible.
Gold and gray barred, chestnut permissible.


Neck:
Hackle—cream, sparsely barred with gray.
Hackle—Gold, sparsely barred with gray, chestnut permissible. Color intensity decreases from head to body.
Shoulder—cream, barred with dark gray, some chestnut permissible.
Shoulder—gold, barred with dark gray, chestnut permissible.

Back:
Cream, barred with dark gray, some chestnut permissible.
Gold, barred with dark gray, chestnut permissible.

Saddle:
cream, barred with dark gray, edged in cream.
gold, barred with orange and some dark gray, edged in gold, chestnut permissible.

Wings:

Fronts and Bows—
dark gray, faintly barred, some chestnut permissible.
dark gray, faintly barred, chestnut.

Coverts—
gray, barred, tipped in cream.
dark gray, barred, tipped in gold.

Primaries—

dark gray, faintly barred, small amounts of white permissible.
dark gray, faintly barred, small amounts of white permissible.

Secondaries—

dark gray, sparsely barred with gray intermixed with cream, some white permissible.
dark gray, sparsely barred with gray intermixed with gold, some white permissible.

Wing diagram for reference:

View attachment 2902340

Now let's look at your cockerel's wing, because I'm second-guessing myself.

Fronts and bows are about the same in both varieties except the cream says "some chestnut is permissible" rather than just saying "chestnut". I would say this bird has "some" chestnut, but it's also possible that some of the chestnut we're seeing (remember autosomal red is not affected by the IG gene) might actually be gold.

Coverts should be gray barred tipped in CREAM or tipped in GOLD, I think I'm just seeing gray barred all the way through the ends? So that's a toss-up.

Primaries are the same in both varieties so that's irrelevant to this.

Secondaries are either intermixed with GOLD or CREAM with some white permissible. There's a lot of white in the primaries on this bird, but when I look closely I do see a couple of spots of what possibly appears to be true gold rather than chestnut or diluted gold/cream, but I'm not really sure.


View attachment 2902341

Let's look at the neck and back:

View attachment 2902368

Head and crest should be CREAM and gray or GOLD or STRAW and gray... is that cream or straw? It's definitely not GOLD like the crele OEGB I posted earlier.

Now, hackle. It should be CREAM sparsely barred with gray or GOLD sparsely barred with gray, chestnut permissible, color intensity decreasing head to body. Again, this doesn't look like the OEGB I posted earlier, so is this color CREAM or GOLD? Looks visually pretty creamy and diluted to me compared to undiluted gold duckwing birds. Cream to me does NOT denote an absence of yellow tones, so I'd expect some of that even in a cream bird whereas the expectation seems to be that cream birds should have NO yellow tones at all in this area.

Moving back to the saddle which I think is often what trips folks up, lets consider the cream standard calls for "cream, barred with dark gray, edged in cream" and the golden crele standard says "gold, barred with orange and some dark gray, edged in gold, chestnut permissible." I don't see any chestnut in the saddle, and again we're forced to ask ourselves if "cream" means a full absence of yellow tones or not. That saddle does not look GOLD to me. It looks like diluted gold, similar to what you see in the Cream Light Brown Dutch bantam.

I hate this breed. :th
In order to prevent people telling me my creams weren't dilute enough, I just called them gold crele. I bet it's part of why the show circuit is such a struggle for legbars.
 
Is not another problem with diluting certain aspects of legbar colors also cause ambiguous chick down?

I have no idea yet. I get silver-looking birds, more colorful looking cream birds, birds I'd call true golden crele, and even white from my flock. Chick down on makes can be dramatically different from light creamy looking chicks to mote coffee tones (but still obviously male) boys. Im hoping to tag some boys according to down color and grow them out this year to see if there's any correlation.

I personally think ambiguity is mostly from crossing unrelated lines and not breeding for autosexing for multiple generations.
 
I have no idea yet. I get silver-looking birds, more colorful looking cream birds, birds I'd call true golden crele, and even white from my flock. Chick down on makes can be dramatically different from light creamy looking chicks to mote coffee tones (but still obviously male) boys. Im hoping to tag some boys according to down color and grow them out this year to see if there's any correlation.

I personally think ambiguity is mostly from crossing unrelated lines and not breeding for autosexing for multiple generations.
Most of the complaints about ambiguity I've seen have been related to the Ree's line or people new to the breed. I haven't seen as much with the AB line or the C line groups, but time is probably muddling many of these lines together as new people come in with different parent birds to promote diversity and stave off inbreeding. My problem with bringing in possible fresh blood will be keeping out Ree's line for sure, as there have been some pointed statements about their mixing with previous ones.
 
Most of the complaints about ambiguity I've seen have been related to the Ree's line or people new to the breed. I haven't seen as much with the AB line or the C line groups, but time is probably muddling many of these lines together as new people come in with different parent birds to promote diversity and stave off inbreeding. My problem with bringing in possible fresh blood will be keeping out Ree's line for sure, as there have been some pointed statements about their mixing with previous ones.
My starter flock came from Cackle, to be honest. They're as good as many, but certainly not all, birds that i see coming from "breeders".

Of course, haven't had my hands on those birds so i guess that's unfair to say... quality it's felt in hand for sure. But as far as the things you can judge from photographs... i feel it's accurate.

My biggest concerns in my own stock are poor muscling and lack of general substance (depth, width, length) and correct type. I couldn't care less about crests and combs and these nitpicky things at the end of the day, but these are the things we can all evaluate in photos so that's what we talk about, i guess. And truly.... the color thing in legbars is deliciously scandalous and debatable, so why not talk about it until such a time we can all bring our own truckload of birds together to put hands on.
 
Oh Im glad I found this thread! Trying to see what I need to breed out in my breeding program.
The rooster lacks full crest feathers due to a tragic accident as a chick where an adult chicken got into the brooder and pecked his head nearly to the bone. After weeks of extreme care he grow up healthy.
 

Attachments

  • 8BA2F865-1289-4B8A-86C3-CD59AE08F78E.jpeg
    8BA2F865-1289-4B8A-86C3-CD59AE08F78E.jpeg
    137.5 KB · Views: 5
He needs a while to fill in yet, but I am not seeing anything major. He does have a serrated blade in the back but that's not a huge biggie. It is nice that his comb stays up and the blade is lifted from his head. It is good to aim for matching hackle and saddle feathers on cocks. He is starting to get his big boy tail. His barring, what I can see of it, looks acceptable. Nice leg color, nice white earlobes, they need a little time to grow out too. I like his long back. I like your pullet too. She has a cute crest that is not too big and not too small. Her shape is nice for her age, she should also fill out well. Her wattles are free of folds, which is super. Your cockerel has some folds/wrinkling on his wattles, not ideal but within acceptable. Your pullet, if her wattles stay like they are, will help you in the future to sort that out. Her comb seems to lean over a bit but I cant really tell from the angle.
 

New posts New threads Active threads

Back
Top Bottom