Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[redchicken9]

Paint?

Made my day for humor! However, Nicalandia you are truly going to make a lot of folk's day, as we anticipate your next post!

 

[nicalandia]

Made my day for humor! However, Nicalandia you are truly going to make a lot of folk's day, as we anticipate your next post!

oh its coming...!

ETA(15 minutes)

 

[blackbirds13]

WOW, I can not believe all the posts. Nicalandia and others, I'm going to have to take awhile to process all of what you sent. I should go out more often and chase around goats, while my husband's friend gets a stuck John Deere 410 backhoe out of the pond! Lot's of photos and information. I think my head is bursting!

Cool logo Blackbirds13! I like the type you choose. The idea of blue to reflect the egg color is good, but I really like a bright British blue like in the British flag. If we keep the UK standards or want to indicate this relationship we might consider the British flag. I think of the cream legbar as the British blue egg layer (to differentiate it from others). I might be moving towards bulky, but what does a rectangle with the male and female and a chick or two look like? Is there a lettering that says British without seeming Shakespearean? Also great logo ChicKat.

ChicKat your roo looks better to me all the time! I do see white in your primaries (hmm), but the body color looks a lot like Text-fig.2. Legbar cockerel. The barring on the tail differs. Punnett's main sickles are barred. I also really don't see the color creep in the Punnett's saddle feathers, but it is a black and white photo. Punnett specifically mentions the pale gold of the hackles and bright chestnut of the wing coverts.

Flaming Chicken, Norbert looks pretty good too. Can we see a few more photos of him, perhaps one that shows his wings out? How do the UK standards read to you? Where do you see differences, any comments on the language for the males?

My lightest roo had red earlobes, how hard is that to change? He's with a friend of a friend now, but I have offspring! Phage, you have a large collection of upcoming males. Hope you grow them all out.

Yes, we'll have to discuss UK vs. US on how look we may differ, but also what were the original birds like. Wonder if someone can lead us to early black and white plates. How about early color show winners or color paintings? How can we connect with UK cream legbar affectionados?

I lean towards trying to improve or breed towards cream as it seems the UK standard and name emphasize this.
Tomorrow, the gals are up.

I think he is talking about the initial or gold legbar in that article. I made some assumptions earlier in the Legbar thread and was advised that that article was about the brown class and I re-read and it does say that they selected 'four from the brown class" to obtain the homozygous barred cocks. This article starts with the mating of the plymouth rock and the brown leghorn with no mention of the Aruacana. I may be wrong but that was what I have been given to believe. So the type may be the same but the color description may not hold true for the Cream Legbar. I'd have to re-read the Cream Plumage article to see if it mentions that in there. I'm interested in the chestnut that appears in the primaries and wing-bay as this is not per the UK SOP and I wonder if it's in his writings.

 

[nicalandia]

the issue you guys are having with the too rich chestnut color on the roos shoulders and saddles is do to Autosomal Red and some red enhancers, if you want to overcome this you need to get rid of them, how well the easiest way is to use an evenly colored legbar roo on your breeding stock and cross his doughters back to him... but if this is not possible then you need to get rid of it the hard way... using Silver...

here is an example of an evenly colored golden(S/s+) game rooster, showing no Autosomal red on his shoulders,




the Hardway below...

your best bet is to use the best roo you have and cross it to a silver duckwing leghorn this will give Crele Hens and golden crele roosters, the hens will have one copy of recessive cream gene and should still have autosomal red on them, but in heterozygous form, mate the best looking golden roo(look for cream evenly colored shoulders, or light gold shoulders) cross this rooster with your best Crele hen(I say Crele because they are F1 of LegbarxLeghorn cross)

out of this cross you should get the following birds...



Very very Dark looking Legbars(No cream, with autosomal red and only one copy of Barring, OEG as an Example as they are know to carry Autosomal Red)


Darker Looking Legbars(no Cream, no autosomal red and only one copy of barring, look for even gold tone, a roo lacking autosomal will have lighter shoulders, this boy is a keeper)






another evenly colored crele(a keeper)



*************************************************************************

Dark shouldered light Crele (No cream, Autosomal Red, 2 Copies of Barring, no good)




********************************************************************************

Light Crele (No Cream, No Autosomal Red 2 Copies of Barring, a keeper)

***************************************************************************************


Dark Shoulder Golden Crele (S/s+ cream looking, but lacks Cream, Autosomal Red 1 or 2 copies of Barring, no good)




Light Golden Crele (Golden S/s+. No Cream, No autosomal Red, 2 copies of barring, a keeper)





*********************************************************************************

now the Cream ones...

Dark Cream Crele(Cream, autosomal red and one copy of barring, no good for breeder)



Dark shoulder light cream(Cream, autosomal red and 2 copies of barring, if not for the shoulders this is the perfect cream color, no good for a breeder)

***********************************************************************************
even colored Cream Crele(well or at least coming close to it..you can see his shoulders are of a darker tone as to the rest of his body color but they are not as rich as other Red shoulders, could be a keeper)




**************************************************
Silver Looking Cream Legbars..(this birds could be Silver or not But take a look at the shoulders, you dont see autosomal red in it, this is good, because autosomal red CANT be diluted by cream, silver or barring, or the combination of them all, a keeper)

*********************************************************************


Silver looking Crele with dark shoulders(not a keeper, no good for breeder stock)







Ok so after seeing all of the birds you may end up with, which type of the birds are the keepers?...

select an even colored bird, they are you the corner stone of your breeding program..

how even?

This kind of even



what shade of gold/cream? remember they need to be cream so anything from the roo posted above to almost silver is accepted I think, aslong as they are Evenly colored

some hens may even look silver..

 

[ChicKat]

nicalandia---

What an amazing demo for us. Thanks. In our virtual future club, at our first virtual convention-- you will have to be our virtual keynote speaker on the topic of 'where IS the cream in the cream legbar!'

Seriously -- THANK YOU for that information and assembling the photos with descriptions. Eggs-elent.

ETA - I do have questions though. Punnett states that (or was it SOP from uK) some chestnut is allowed in the male feathering. So would it really be something that would disqualify a bird as a breeder...basically was the genetic knowledge in the 1940's unequal to the present day knowledge?

And..... if we are trying to establish the breed for the APA qualification -- would we even want to talk about any out-crossing at this Point? Or would we want to be sure that we had purebred birds.

 

[madamwlf]

Lonnyandrina thanks went to second site. Looks like mine and perhaps others here have a lot of gold and chestnut!
Omaeve, madamwlf, I believe has the whites (not sure they are cream or whites), it might be good to touch base with her. Am hoping to see her show some of her cream legbars.

Sorry I'm a bit slow. We've been super busy at work with our annual inventory. I'm exhausted.

My birds are Cream Legbars but I have a hen that does throw white chicks and quite frequently too. So it would seem that both my rooster and this hen are carriers of the recessive white gene. I will try to get some pictures of them this weekend along with the one rooster chick I am growing out. When he hatched he was more of a gray and black chick and he's feathering in quite nicely.

Looks like I have quite a bit of reading to do this weekend. That will be after we get back from a reptile show and I take care of my weekend chores.

 

[nicalandia]

nicalandia---

What an amazing demo for us. Thanks. In our virtual future club, at our first virtual convention-- you will have to be our virtual keynote speaker on the topic of 'where IS the cream in the cream

I´ll sure be there...

nicalandia---

ETA - I do have questions though. Punnett states that (or was it SOP from uK) some chestnut is allowed in the male feathering. So would it really be something that would disqualify a bird as a breeder...basically was the genetic knowledge in the 1940's unequal to the present day knowledge?

well at the time, Autosomal Red was not understood at all(it still not well understood) getting rid of it its kind of hard, I think chestnut is ok a more intense red is not desirable,

nicalandia---

And..... if we are trying to establish the breed for the APA qualification -- would we even want to talk about any out-crossing at this Point? Or would we want to be sure that we had purebred birds.

out crossing to leghorn is not really a bad idea seeing how legbars get their utility traits come from the leghorn blood in them.. but its really up to you guys, you will be establishing the APA afterall, I will be here for genetic guidance

 

[omaeve]

Lonnyandrina thanks went to second site. Looks like mine and perhaps others here have a lot of gold and chestnut!
Omaeve, madamwlf, I believe has the whites (not sure they are cream or whites), it might be good to touch base with her. Am hoping to see her show some of her cream legbars.

YES I KNOW THATS WHERE I SAW THEM

 

[redchicken9]

I think he is talking about the initial or gold legbar in that article. I made some assumptions earlier in the Legbar thread and was advised that that article was about the brown class and I re-read and it does say that they selected 'four from the brown class" to obtain the homozygous barred cocks. This article starts with the mating of the plymouth rock and the brown leghorn with no mention of the Aruacana. I may be wrong but that was what I have been given to believe. So the type may be the same but the color description may not hold true for the Cream Legbar. I'd have to re-read the Cream Plumage article to see if it mentions that in there. I'm interested in the chestnut that appears in the primaries and wing-bay as this is not per the UK SOP and I wonder if it's in his writings.

I need to read more carefully. Seems like a lot of things are happening at once! Nicalandia, completely blown away! Applause, applause, applause!

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Wow nicalandia that is an incredible piece of work there. I am SUPER slow with figuring out all this genetic stuff, mostly because I can't look at it until the kids are in bed at 9 or 10 PM! But I will certainly be referring back to your post for a LONG time to come- so much information there helping us straighten things out!

Rinda