Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[KPenley]

blackbirds13, would you mind sharing where you got the brown base from? Everything I've read from the UK SOP talks about grey and silver down, except for the female stripes on baby pullets of course. TIA

Also, would you consider sharing pics of your chicks and which you cull and keep in the breeding program, and why? Or whatever age you deem appropriate? I know it takes up space but we are all learning so much from pics!

 

[nicalandia]

Confirmed the very light ones(Females) are Silver chicks... thank god this guy documented from chicks up to 15 weeks of age... he is in the UK but his stock is Highly Highly Heterozygous(I see Crested, Gold and silver legbar blood in them), you can see dark females and ligh females(Silver, Crested and none crested) all of them are Females except for a lonly Male that you cant see on older videos and this male is darker than the light colored hens(silver hens).. none of the hens shows the headspot, but some lack barring at all, most are barred..

videos

Day old(one male spoted, dont see any more)


3 days of age..(again a lonely dark male, Heterozygous for barring)



at 10 weeks of age


you can see more videos on his youtube chanel http://www.youtube.com/user/BlazingBostock I have already asked him/her where did he get his stock, they are located on the UK, so maybe GFF got their stock on the same place, if GFF stock is Heterozygous for some traits, this guy´s beats them all, he has silver crested, silver none creasted, gold creasted, gold none creasted, barred and none barred legbars.. highly highly heterozygous forms

 

[blackbirds13]

blackbirds13, would you mind sharing where you got the brown base from? Everything I've read from the UK SOP talks about grey and silver down, except for the female stripes on baby pullets of course. TIA

Also, would you consider sharing pics of your chicks and which you cull and keep in the breeding program, and why? Or whatever age you deem appropriate? I know it takes up space but we are all learning so much from pics!

I've been scouring the internet and have purchased some out of print books and current books on poultry breeding. I've scoured the internet for articles of all kinds. I've read up on articles from Punnet, Pease, Stillwater and whoever else I can find. In my opinion and from Punnet's Cream Plumage article and his Legbar article I believe the Cream Legbar is based on the brown plumage of the Brown Legbar (also from a Stillwater article) and the gold and cream allelomorphic pair...but I have said that before. Silver is on a different pair with gold. There is no grey that i have read about. I do undersand about the basic red black origins from readings but still not clear on the whole chestnut issue. I have a vague understanding of the Mahogany issue when it comes to Marans and the issue with the black plumage and the brown issue or white undercolor and the purple and green sheen issues. I also base what I believe on what I see in front of me. I think having, hatching and watching these birds grow and mature is the best way to learn.
As for pictures, I do not take or post a lot of pictures of my birds unless I specifically am looking for a critique. I lost a batch of female pullets this summer to predators and it put me way behind. I then lost my Alpha rooster so I am basically recouping what I can to move forward. I take notes and record things I deem important and band chicks for certain traits. The few pics i take are for my personal record keeping. I am not prepared to really share my flock full scale and this is for all my breeds - BCM, Jubilee and Chocolate Orps and my Legbars. I do not even sell hatching eggs or chicks just male culls that I think will sell and older birds that I no longer wish to keep. Next year all that might change if I have a bit of luck and have birds I'm proud of selling and showing off.

I was hoping we would be working towards a standard that was, at least initially, broad enough for a general consensus and could narrow as we bred forward and saw what we had and what we could do with it. I'm hoping that we will be able to forge forward to that end. My breeding plan is specific to my flock and what I believe it may not hold true for others.

 

[nicalandia]

Silver is on a different pair with gold. There is no grey that i have read about. I do undersand about the basic red black origins from readings but still not clear on the whole chestnut issue. I have a vague understanding of the Mahogany

thats correct, you can have a silver cream bird or a gold cream bird and also a goldend cream bird(S/s+).. but Silver is not powerful enough to dilute or inhibit autosomal red or mahogany, what does this means? with the right genes, you can have an almost red bird with a silver background, Cream is also ineffective at diluting mahogany or autosomal red...

you may want to read up on this thread, its called Clarification on Autosomal red..
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=24327#Post24327

from that link a silver roo that is almost red





now on hens...

silver hen on left.. gold hen on right..both with a red body(you can tell the silver from the hackle)

 

[KPenley]

Also here's the standards for the cream legbar chicks!

Female: Silver-grey type. The stripe should be very dark brown, extending over the head, neck and rump. The edges of the strip should be clearly defined, not blurred and blending with the ground colour - the sharper the contrast, especially over the rump, the better. The strip should be broad; a narrow or discontinuous strip should be avoided. A light head patch should be visible, clearly defined in outline, showing up brightly against the dark background.

Male: The down is much paler in tint, the pattern being blurred and washed out from head to rump; it may be described as pale silvery-slate.

This is where I saw the silver grey reference. The female and male sections are quoted from page 55 of the UK SOP on Amazon.com. Thanks for the article information, I'll look for those. I look forward to seeing pics of anyone's flock who wants to share,as well as read about your strategies for improving and strengthening them. You're right that first hand knowledge is the best. But I'm also looking to learn everything I possibly can before I reach the point of culling so I can do it correctly. Pics help me Best wishes everybody!

 

[normanack]

from that link a silver roo that is almost red

That rooster has a bigger problem. He has a head, a neck, and a tail, but no body.

 

[KPenley]

I was hoping we would be working towards a standard that was, at least initially, broad enough for a general consensus and could narrow as we bred forward and saw what we had and what we could do with it. I'm hoping that we will be able to forge forward to that end. My breeding plan is specific to my flock and what I believe it may not hold true for others.

In terms of a broad standard, is this where color cards would come in? For example, birds would receive the most points if certain parts were between xx color and xx color on the card? I understand that each breeder will have individual goals based on their birds and where they want them to be. That just makes sense. I think we do need to be careful to have a similar end goal, or we'll end up with our own variety of EE Legbars (what the UK is essentially dealing with, although they don't call them that).

That rooster has a bigger problem. He has a head, a neck, and a tail, but no body.

He does look like he's missing his middle!

 

[GaryDean26]

After a week of diligent reading I have finally caught up on the CLBWG thread. I have two pages of notes, but don't even know where to start.

hmm?

First, thank you Nicalandia for your post on the differences between Gold, Golden, and Silver as well as the information on Autosomal red, Mahogany, and Chestnut. I have been trying to figure this stuff out for over a year and that is by far the clearest information I have seen.

Next, I would like to see some similar discussion on Body Type. The terms up-right, stilty, light, heavy, wedge shaped, etc. have been thrown out, but if someone that has a good handle on the definitions of the description in the British SOP could do a photo comparison of what is wedge shaped and what isn't as well as these other terms that I know I for one would greatly benefit.

Autosexing
1) Good: Pullets with chipmunk stripes and eye liner that can be distinguished from the cockerels at day one
2) Better: Above plus pullets with wide straight stripes
3) Best: Above plus pullets with out white spots on their head

We need to keep in mind that people can really only work on one thing in their line at a time. It might be counter productive to require the "best" on very small point because that could eliminate breeders that excel in bigger areas (i.e. cream color plumage, egg color, production, body type, cresting, shank color, eye color, etc.).

Single Barred Males
This is NOT a problem in the GFF bloodlines. In the past 12 months I have not heard a single instant in which anyone has received a single barred or miss sexed Cream Legbar shipped from GFF.

Breed Name
I think that everyone can agree that the non-crested white egg laying Gold and Silver Legbars and a separate breed from the Cream Legbar. I really like the idea of using the name Crested Legbar in the USA. That way we have a Crested Cream Legbar that is true to the Historical name and legacy of the Cream Legbar and leaves things open for a Crested White Legbar, Crested Gold Legbar, etc. in the future (not now...let's just work on the Crested Cream Legbar)

Note: Since I kept the non-crested white egg laying Gold Legbars in my flock before I got Cream Legbars I already use the term Crested legbar in my flock book so I can log which of my Cream Legars have gold plumage and which have cream plumage with out confusing them with my white egg laying birds which are a different breed in my mind.

Okay...so I am not too long winded just two more points (I have a dozen more in my notes, but I have two ears and just one mouth so it is probably good to do half as much talking as I did listening)

Purity
Greenfire farm gave us the clay to work with and dumped it in our hands to mold. They don't specialize in the molding part and in most instances would rather spend their efforts importing the next breed than spending 5+ years trying to finish off the one they imported last year. We have good lines and will discover what is in them as we start to work with them just like we would with any line of chickens that we start with that has already been in the USA for 100 yeas. This one may have more work required, but not nearly as much as some newly imported breeds (i.e. look at the SOP for Basque Hens and where we currently are with the breed in North America).

Last Point,

Breed History

Yes, I volunteered to work on this last week with a few other people. We are coordinating this effort through email and PM's. Since most of us were already members of the Yahoo Cream Legbars Breeders group and that site was offered to the CLBWG as a location to post files some of the History reference had been posted there. This is not a duplicated effort. We will give periodic up-dates to Laingcroft and Redchicken9 our progress. If anyone else want to help with the history, we are still looking for someone with good phone skill to contact people in the UK that we only have physical addresses and telephone numbers for (but we will take people without phone skills too). Just send me a PM and we will add you to our communications and put you to work.

 

[faykokoWV]

 

[redhawknc1]

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

i find this thread so interesting and informative...