Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[nicalandia]

Single Barred Males
This is NOT a problem in the GFF bloodlines. In the past 12 months I have not heard a single instant in which anyone has received a single barred or miss sexed Cream Legbar shipped from GFF.

double dose of barring is the cause for light males, this is true for all e alleles(except for silver wheaten and none enhanced gold wheaten, there you cant tell boys from girls) if you are hatching dark female looking males one must asume that two things my be at play, single barred males or a gene that is inhibiting the double dose effect of barring, so far I have yet find such a gene on my "Deep" genetic researchs I have done on Barring and Barred fowls(autosexing including)

 

[blackbirds13]

http://www.poultryclub.org/breed-gallery/chickens/rare-soft-feather-heavy


The Poultry Club of Great Britain
Chickens: Rare Soft Feather Heavy
Autosexing breeds
An autosexing breed is one in which the chicks at hatching can be sexed by their down colouring. It was when crossing the gold Campine with the barred Rock in 1929 that Professor R. C. Punnett and Mr M. S. Pease discovered the basic principle in their experimental work at Cambridge, and made the Cambar.
Barring is sex - linked, there being a double dose in the male and a single dose in the female, the barring being indicated by the light patch on the head of the chick. This light patch is very similar in chicks of both sexes having black down, but when the barring is transferred to a brown down there is a marked difference. The light Head - spot on the female chick (one dose) is small and defined, while on the male chick (double dose) it spreads over the body. For that reason, the down colouring in the day - old cockerel is much paler, and the pattern of markings more blurred, than in the newly hatched pullet chick, which has the sharper pattern of markings.
Standards which have been passed by the Poultry Club are gold and silver Brussbar; Brockbar; gold, silver and cream Legbar; gold and silver Cambar; gold and silver Dorbar; Rhodebar; silver Welbar; Wybar. The cream Legbar, Legbar, Rhodebar, Welbar and Wybar standards are given below and all other standards for autosexing breeds are held by the Rare Poultry Society

 

[faykokoWV]

double dose of barring is the cause for light males, this is true for all e alleles(except for silver wheaten and none enhanced gold wheaten, there you cant tell boys from girls) if you are hatching dark female looking males one must asume that two things my be at play, single barred males or a gene that is inhibiting the double dose effect of barring, so far I have yet find such a gene on my "Deep" genetic researchs I have done on Barring and Barred fowls(autosexing including)

please excuse my ignorance, but can you clarify for me... we do want a double dose of barring and male chicks should be light? Just wanted to make sure I was reading this correct.

On an adult, can you tell if they have double genes for barring or is it only noted by tracking offspring?

 

[babymakes6]

Nicalandia:
Can you confirm for me which of these chicks are the best to keep?
3 males (unfortunately, the lightest one had no left eye and a terrible cross-beak; I already culled him)






And 2 females:

 

[GaryDean26]

double dose of barring is the cause for light males, this is true for all e alleles(except for silver wheaten and none enhanced gold wheaten, there you cant tell boys from girls) if you are hatching dark female looking males one must assume that two things my be at play, single barred males or a gene that is inhibiting the double dose effect of barring, so far I have yet find such a gene on my "Deep" genetic researches I have done on Barring and Barred fowls(autosexing including)

Nicalandia, I think you have skewed this point to where you don't even understand it any more.

First, have you read the 1948 publication by R.C. Punnett title "The Legbar"?

This publication talks about the creation of the Gold legbar which is was the foundation of the Cream Legbar Breed. In this paper Punnett lays out a full study that was done between paired dark down color and the light down genes in the Legbars lines. These paired genes are NOT linked to the barring gene in any way so before you even add barring there is a light and dark down color that is possible.

I assume that you are calling the double barred dark downed cockerels single barred??? You kind of lost me there though because if the quality of the blood line was to the point that the light head patch from the single barring didn't show on the pullets, then it wouldn't show on a single barred cockerel either.

Greenfire Farms has hatched thousands of Cream Legbars and I have not heard a single complaint of anyone being send a bird from GFF they were told was a pullet that started growing a large red comb at 4 weeks and crowing at 8 weeks (yes the Legbars have been reported to crow at as little as 4-1/2 weeks).

If the Greenfire Farm bloodlines were not 100% autosexing we would know because the difference in price between the pullets and cockerels was $60 this spring. People would not let a single barred male slid through as a pullet, and it if it were single barred there it would be classified as a pullet because they don't vent sex Legbars.

I myself have hatched 4 dozen Cream Legbars this year and haven't had a problem sexing a single one. I do not know of any single barred cockerels or non-barred pullets that have shipped from GFF.

 

[GaryDean26]

Quote:

Nicalandia:
Can you confirm for me which of these chicks are the best to keep?

My advise would be to NEVER cull chicks based on down color alone, but from an auto-sexing point of view the spread out spots on the cockerels (like the one on the left) are not as good and the round concentrated spots. All of these have blurred stripes, but if any of them had less blurred stripes than the others that would be less desirable too. I like the one if the middle best of the three for autosexing.

If you want you can band the one with the best spot to use for a tie breaker in later selections. If all else is equal go with the one that is the best autosexing, but until other requirements like weight, cresting, comb, cream color, etc. are set in your line the concentration of the spot on the head of the day-old chick can wait.

The pullet on the bottom with the wide dorsal strip would be the best for autosexing, but I am guessing that you are not planning to cull either of them.


P.S. The pullet on the left seem to have a more silvery down color. Smyth's research of the cream gene says it doesn't have any effect on the down color, but until I can established the cream gene in my mature plumage I am going to track the silvery pullets to see if Smyth is right or if the BCGB are right and that it is an early identifier of the cream plumage. The cream Plumage is more important that the wide dorsal stripes. If the one on the left is cream and the one on the right is gold, then by all means breed the cream pullet over the wider dorsal strip.

 

[babymakes6]

Thank you, GaryDean.
I am not going to be culling anything unless there is an obvious deformity (as in the cross-beak male). Yes, I do plan to keep anything I hatch until it is grown and then I will decide which ones I will be keeping to breed from. I think the bottom female is beautiful! Her color doesn't show as well in the picture as in real life. I will also be banding them separately to see how they look when grown.

 

[ChicKat]

http://www.harislau.info/legbar

The Cream Legbar

Origin:
Great Britain
Recognised by The Poultry Club in 1933

Breeder:
Professor Reg Punnett, Cambridge UK

Parentage:
Brown Leghorn
Barred Rock
Birds from Aracauna Indians (Patagonia)

Classification:
Soft Feather Light Breed
Autosexing

Weight:
Cocks - 7 to 7 ½lb
Hens - 5 to 6lb

Ring Size:
Cock - 18mm
Hen - 16mm

Productivity:
250+

Egg Colour:
Pastel Blue​

For some unknown reason in recent years the Cream Legbar is frequently, and incorrectly, called either the "Cream Crested Legbar" or the "Crested Legbar" both names are incorrect, the correct name is Cream Legbar!

In 1927 well known plant collector Clarence Elliott from Stow-in-the-Wolds in Gloucestershire returned from his travels in the Welsh speaking country of Patagonia in South America bringing with him three hens of the 'blue-egged fowl of Chile'. It is known that these blue egg laying hens had been kept by the Araucana Indians of Chile and Patagonia for more than four centuries. In addition to laying blue, green or olive shelled eggs the birds of the Araucauna Indians had crests of feathers on their heads, and many of them were 'rumpless' having no tail. Elliott's three hens subsequently went to Cambridge University where Professor Reg Punnett was studying poultry genetics and were instrumental, with the Legbar, in producing the blue egg laying Cream Legbar.

The Cream Legbar differs from the Gold Legbar and Silver Legbar which lay cream or white eggs in two ways; firstly it lays eggs with blue shells, and secondly it has a crest or head tuft, both characteristics inherited from 'blue-egged fowl of Chile': it would probably have been better if the Cream Legbar had been given a different name! Some years later other 'blue-egged fowl of Chile' were introduced into the USA and Britain and were standardised into the 'Americauna' and the 'Araucana' both breeds laying bluish or greenish eggs.

In recent years there has been a boom in the sales of 'novelty coloured eggs' in up-market supermarkets; these are produced by modern commercial hybrids which lay eggs in a range of pastel blues, greens, and pinkish brown. Some of these hybrids include "Legbar" in their name and it is important that these are not confused with the blue egg laying Cream Legbar. Unfortunately there are now many cross-breds masquerading as the Cream Legbar.


The Cream Legbar belongs to a group of breeds known as Autosexing Breeds: the 'barring' pattern is sex-linked, the cockerels having two chromosomes for barring and the pullets only one. Day old chicks of a barred breed have a light patch on the top of the head, in chicks with black down both sexes are very similar. When the barring is combined with brown colouring the light spot on the head of the pullets is small and well defined, an in addition there is a very clearly defined dark stripe down the body. In the cockerels the light patch covers most of the head, the down is much paler and there is only a very blurred indistinct body stripe. The Breed Standard give a description of the down colouring.

The Poultry Club of Great Breed Standard for the Legbar includes the Gold Legbar, Silver Legbar, and the Cream Legbar, though the Cream Legbar unlike the other is crested, and also lays a blue egg. The standard defines the Cream Legbar as a Light Breed with the average mature cock weighing in at 7lb and the hen at 5lb. They are upright, muscular bodied, sprightly birds with the typical wedge shaped body of the laying breeds. The Cream Legbar has the typical flighty temperament which one expects to find in a light breed; they are a rather 'twitchy' and inquisitive breed. The cocks have a predisposition to aggressive bevaviour!


The cock is a handsome bird with cream and grey barred feathers. It is an upright bird with a large curved tail. Behind the large single comb the cock sports a small crest or spiky tuft of feathers inherited from its ancestors of the South American Indians. The hens tend to have a floppy comb and a much neater, larger crest than the male; they have brownish silver-grey plumage with broad smudged barring, and unlike the male, have a warm salmon coloured breast. The hens may show some brown colouring to either side of the crest, whilst the cocks may have some chestnut feathers in the crest and in the saddle hackles. The breed was created as a laying breed and colour faults pale into insignificance in comparison to sky blue egg colour and productivity.

Hen eggs start off with white shells, the final shell colour being added as the egg is formed in the oviduct, the colour is not fixed until the egg is dry and dark brown eggs often show white patches where the colour has been wiped off in the nest before it was fully dry -this is especially true of dark brown matt eggs. Professor Punnett carried out research into the blue eggs of Clarence Elliott's three South American hens and in 1933 established that the blue egg colour was the result of a dominant gene (O), and unlike other shell colours the blue of the Araucana egg is not superficial but rather the entire shell is coloured which is a useful guide to the relative purity of the stock in relation to original Araucanas.
blackbirds13 - you do find the coolest stuff.
It just struck me that they are saying 250 eggs per year. I had seen where someone (I think it was de Gray site) was saying that the breeders should aim for 180. What is everyone's egg production? My hen is raising chicks as she comes off being broody....they are just 3-weeks. She was laying very regularly prior to that.

 

[ChicKat]

My comments in blue....I hadn't seen much discussion on this......

Ok, now with the female cream legbar.





Female

45a. The general characteristics are similar to those of the male, allowing for the natural sexual differences, (yes)
45b.except that the comb may be erect or falling gracefully over either side of the face without obstructing the eyesight, (yes) and
45c.the tail should be carried closely and not at such a high angle. (yes) (mine still on the high side)
All my chickens have high angles......
46. Neck hackles cream, softly barred grey. (yes) (hackles here cream to gold to little depending on the pullet, barred black, ie. all of mine are dark) And some have silver?
47.Breast salmon, well defined in outline. (yes) (salmon says pink, mine says rust) There is salmon and there is salmon....Think of how dark the lox type of salmon is....... Does anyone else beside me have the 'online auction color chart'? IMO there are a couple of reasons that we should use this to match the colors that we are talking about..including egg shell colors, salmon colors and creams..... It would also help an entrepreneur and exempt the future 'crested legbar club' from having to go into the color chart publishing business.....;O)
48. Body silver grey, with rather indistinct broad soft barring. (yes) (body charcoal or dark, perhaps indistinct barring) I also have some rusty brown on the females. My little females seem to be growing out darker presently. (they don't get much sun either at this moment).
49. Wings, primaries grey-peppered; (yes) (mine dark, very faint white edge to splashed white)
50. secondaries very faintly barred; (yes) (peppered rust or grey)
51. coverts silver grey. (yes) (Dark some faint barring, hint of rust)
52. Tail silver grey, faintly barred. (yes) (mine dark) mine are dark too...
53. Crest cream and grey, some chestnut permissible. (yes) (not all have crest, mine dark or dark with barring or rust, although crest photos from juveniles) Here is one place mine are different. My crests on females are VERY dark charcoal or nearly black. My broody is now getting a chestnut or dark brown feathering at the sides of her crest above her eyes.






54. Beak yellow. (yes)
55. Eyes orange or red. (yes)
56. Comb, face, and wattles red. (yes)
57. Ear-lobes pure opaque, white or cream, slight pink markings not unduly to handicap an otherwise good male. (added note, ie not acceptable for female) (yes)
58. Legs and feet yellow. (yes)

59. Weights Female 2-2.70kg (4-6lb) (yes) (assume so)



One difference that I see with my, and many USA cream legbars is that they have barred crests on the female...and the crests seem larger....Ours are more tight..what I have heard of as 'neat'....

How is progress on the draft SOP coming along? Is the chick-down the last group for discussion?

 

[ChicKat]

Someone had said that we haven't talked much about 'type'

Here are the UK judging point distributions:


SCALE OF POINTS
Type 30
Colour 20
Head 20
Legs 10
Condition 10
Weight 10

100 Points

Who has type insights/info??