Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[faykokoWV]

Quote:
I breed Welsummers and the SOP for them has salmon colored breast and gold hackles with penciling. The colors gold and salmon are up to interpretation - some breeders like more orange gold and others more yellow gold. Some like a darker salmon, some lighter. The Welsummer breeders like the broad range because it allows breeders to have traits that identify their specific lines. That being said, I like the idea of using a standardized color chart for comparison as long as a range of color is provided, not just one shade.


Quote: I agree that egg color needs to be made an important issue, it can be judged separate from the birds in competition just like Maran eggs. I think too many breeds have lost egg color and production when breeders solely focus on coloring - Marans, Ameraucana, Barnevelder are all examples of this. Just my opinion, but If a backyard chicken collector gets this breed, its going to be for 4 reasons, feather pattern, egg color, production level and the crest. These are the obvious factors that are easy for non breeders to identify.

 

[GaryDean26]

My comments in blue....I hadn't seen much discussion on this......
How is progress on the draft SOP coming along? Is the chick-down the last group for discussion?

I don't know if the cresting color needs to be discussed or not, but the dark black crests are oviously not to standard.

I don't have any knowlege of the definitions used by APA for body types, but did look for photos to use as examples to be discussed.

Is this RIR wedge shaped? It is deeper (distance from back to keel bone) at the tail than at the sholders. I am told that laying breeds all are deeper at the tail.

http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/7/7f/7f9b0543_P2070078.jpeg

How about this BCM? Is it wedge shaped. It is narrower at the tail than at the the sholders. I think that for for laying breeds you want a wide body at the tail. Pinched tails won't be good layers. The same is true for dual purpose birds. I think that some of the meat birds can have pinched tails as it can make for a body type with more breast meat.

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/21719698/sn/382424198/name/099.jpg

Other photos and comments are welcome.

 

[nicalandia]

http://www.poultryclub.org/breed-gallery/chickens/rare-soft-feather-heavy

but when the barring is transferred to a brown down there is a marked difference. The light Head - spot on the female chick (one dose) is small and defined, while on the male chick (double dose) it spreads over the body. For that reason, the down colouring in the day - old cockerel is much paler, and the pattern of markings more blurred, than in the newly hatched pullet chick, which has the sharper pattern of markings.

e+ wildtype chick down is NOT brown, he was talking about the eb brown e allele

 

[nicalandia]

please excuse my ignorance, but can you clarify for me... we do want a double dose of barring and male chicks should be light?

thats correct, dark males should not be allowed to breed, or hens with a light head spot, why? could joe breeder tell the difference between a dark male and a hen with a headspot 90% of the time? I dont thinkso, just save yourself any more trouble and cull them at an early age

 

[nicalandia]

Nicalandia, I think you have skewed this point to where you don't even understand it any more.

you wish, and I´m done helping around here, guess some of you guys adhere to "where ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise"

anybody with a Genetic question just P.M me ok

 

[normanack]

I don't have any knowlege of the definitions used by APA for body types, but did look for photos to use as examples to be discussed.

Is this RIR wedge shaped? It is deeper (distance from back to keel bone) at the tail than at the sholders. I am told that laying breeds all are deeper at the tail.

http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/7/7f/7f9b0543_P2070078.jpeg

Other photos and comments are welcome.

Sounds like we need Walt.
Oddly enough, I've heard the RIR being described as having the shape of a brick.

 

[GaryDean26]

e+ wildtype chick down is NOT brown, he was talking about the eb brown e allele

Then what color is the chick down on a e+ wildtype chick on the top of the head where the spot from the barring gene forms if it isn't brown?

No, he is NOT talking about the eb allele. He is talking about Cream Legbars. They have the chipmonk pattern that is the e+ allele. The eb allele are the helmet pattern chicks.

 

[nicalandia]

Then what color is the down on a e+ wildtype chick on the top of the head when the spot from the barring gene forms if it isn't brown?

No, he is NOT talking about the eb allele. He is talking about Cream Legbars. They have the chipmonk pattern that is the e+ allele. The eb allele are the helmet pattern chicks.

"where ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise"

 

[nicalandia]

These paired genes are NOT linked to the barring gene in any way so before you even add barring there is a light and dark down color that is possible.
.

I need to address this point because I cant let ignorance run amuk on my watch.....



Punnet lived on an Era where there was not much studies on the genes affecting chick down color or shade, having said that, even the Darkest of wildtype Chick down will be diluted by Homozygous Barring, and its a reality that you can have a very dark wildtype hemizygous barred female lacking a headspot, this is the Epitome of an 100% autosexable chicks, and any John Doe can sex at hatch...

known wildtype chick down Diluters/Enhancers

Mahogany
Dilute
Blue/Splash
Dun
Dominant White
Homozygous Barring
Dark Brown
recessive white
recessive black

none of the above(except barring) is present on the Crested Cream Legbars, if there is a unknown and Undocumented gene darkening the wildtype chick down on this birds, seems recessive in nature and needs to be cull on site,

 

[GaryDean26]

Quote:

Nicalandia,

You are going to have to explain yourself. We are trying to define definitions to understand and adapt an SOP.

Your explanation of the differences between silver, gold, golden make perfect sense, but I know that many of us are completely lost on you conclusions on sexing Legbars so can you please clarify that point without using any genetics so the verbiage that would be relevant to the SOP can be captured.

That being said can you please comment on the three (3) cockerels and two pullets (2) that Babymakes6 posted. What is the minimum required for those five chicks to be autosexing? What colors and markings distinguish the males from the females. Which chicks have the best markings and color for autosexing? What directions should an SOP give on down color and markings?

Also can you comment on the Body Type in the British SOP or on the two examples that I posted for discussion on the wedge body type? Your input would be great in that area since it is one of the most important area in any breed (as can be seen by the point distribution for judging the CLB that Redchicken9's recently post).