Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[checoukan]

Ok, here is pics I took just a few minutes ago of the kid Legbars. They seem to be doing well, but may start them on corid when I change out the water.
Differences are starting to show with the males. One seems to be a lighter brown than the other male. The female does, have the "wild" type as mentioned in past posts.

The male on the left is a softer brown than the male in the middle.

Once again male on left looks a softer brown, but the middle chick, is showing some silver in the wing. The middle chick does have the larger head spot, than the left.

So, I do want more information on the colors. I understand the selection of the chicks for auto sexing, but what colors are we looking for in adults. Are there going to be different shades of color? Or is the main focus going to be for easy of auto-sexing the chicks. I just want to make sure when


choosing the chicks, I will end up with the proper colored adults.

 

[KPenley]

@checoukan: Have you read the British SOP yet? Our goal is to get as close as possible to it with minor changes. You're looking for bodies with grey/silverish barring with cream in the head/neck/hackles in the males. Females are darker, but ultimately you're still looking for cream and greys. Your chicks look good as far as the autosexing function. Please keep pics of your birds as they grow since we're all learning about how much CCLBs change from chicks to adult stage! Beautiful babies!

 

[checoukan]

Well, as I am always working 4H kids, I will do that. I will post as these babies grow, and I am going to legband for ID purposes.
I may just post pics of the legbars, say 1 a week, on sunday. We will be able to note the progress of each chick, and be able to comment on what everybody is seeing.

I am trying to get more eggs to hatch.

All excess chicks will go to the 4H kids as projects. I charge no money for them, give the kids a reason to be in the 4H group, and gives them something to look forward too during the summer months.

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Sorry for the delay- we've had "working vacation at home" this week which means catching up with a million and one projects around the house, and I am just now ready to sit down to this stuff again! I will do my best with this, as I do not have an adult male of my own yet. My comments in green.

Cream Legbar Color – Male




Comb, Face and Wattles: Bright Red. Redchicken9: yes.Yes

Beak: Yellow. (Here, I put yellow following the BPS, however the color ‘horn’ also shows up in ASP, examples leghorn beak color is horn; Plymouth rock, yellow. Horn may be a more natural yellow or a color dirtier than pure yellow, this is hard to say). Ok, the SOP defines horn as a broad term commonly used in describing various shadings of color in the beak (thanks Walt on the reminder to look at the glossary). Redchicken9: I think yellow is OK, but I'm still not fully certain. Below is a juvenile female, seems to be shading on her. I was going to say yellow offhand, then I looked closer at this pullet... so I went to the UK CL facebook group to peruse pictures, maybe it is just my eyes but I see mostly yellow beaked males and mostly horn beaked females?? Does anyone else see this or is it just me?




Eyes: Reddish bay. (BPS describes these as orange or red. ASP states reddish bay for a large number of bird eyes that I think may have the same eye color like leghorns, Plymouth rocks, wyandottes, javas, RIR, buckeyes, etc. Different eye descriptions include Minorcas, dark brown; black breasted red modern game have red eyes, while brown red modern game have black eyes). Redchicken9: Bay = light golden brown. Above female, but eye color is truly reddish bay. Yes.Yes




Ear-lobes: Enamel white (or white). (BPS considers it as opaque, white or cream, slight pink markings OK. Here I believe it is a one color only description, with the other possible option being white. Leghorns, minorcas, blue andalusions, buff catalanas are enamel white; Sicilian buttercups are white). Redchicken9: the enamel-white has a satin white surface color, hmm. Going with yes here. I would say white? Enamel white seems OK too. They are so close to my eyes...


Crest: Cream and gray barred, (BPS some chestnut permissible). Redchicken9: Photo below is of a small crest, so it's hard to define how much is a true crest. I'd describe some of it like the pale straw barred with bright gold brown, another feather or two appears grey and cream. I think it needs to be described as barred, so I'm adding that in. Not certain if I need to add in irregular barring (see below). Yes. "Cream and gray barred, some chestnut permissible" perfectly describes the crests I've seen.





Head: (not specified in BPS, but think it is the same as neck below).

*Neck: Hackle cream with infrequent, irregular barring. (BPS: sparsely barred. From my just learned knowledge, regular barring is the black and white transverse pattern of the barred Plymouth Rocks. Irregular is seen in Dominiques, Hollands, Campines (V shaped), and Cuckoo Belgain Bearded d’Anvers Bantams. Dominiques and Barred Hollands are described as irregular, dark and light barred, stopping short of positive black and white. Ours are grey and cream. Here I don’t find another bird with barring and cream. Aside: CL barring is also due to dominate sex-linked factors like Barred Rocks, Dominiques, and Cuckoo groups). Redchicken9: Yes on the description, however my bird shows the colors of rust and lemon are specked in with the grey. The gold legbar neck hackles are pale straw, sparsely barred with gold and black. Would it seem to anyone that the gold legbar hackle description fits? I would stick with "cream with irregular barring" I don't seen the word infrequent as adding anything to the description. I would NOT consider the gold legbar hackle a good description- although we don't have it yet in the US we are aiming for cream!








Back and Shoulders: Cream and dark grey irregular barring. (Here I don’t know whether to add in more. BPS: Some chestnut permissible. I haven’t yet seen in the ASP where a color leakage is mentioned on any other bird. I suspect, it’s like ear-lobes, ASP prefers a crisp color description. Here, those that know more, please comment).
Redchicken9: Yes. OK. May have more than some chestnut, but definitely have chestnut. I don't know about a preferred descriptor for ASP, but I think it is important to note the accepted presence of the chestnut color.




*Saddle: Hackles cream barred with dark grey edged with cream. Redchicken9: Here, like with the neck hackles, my saddle hackles once again match the description of the gold legbar, which is pale straw barred with bright gold-brown, as far as possible from black. I would leave it as is. We are aiming for cream legbars not gold, which is where I see the straw color leading.


Tail: Evenly barred grey. Sickles are lighter barred to white. (Here again is a color range in the sickles, which I’m OK with, but need to research if this is done in any other breeds). Redchicken9: Yes. Yes




Wings: Primaries: Dark grey, faintly barred. Some white permissible. (Here again does the ASP style allow). Redchicken9: Primaries are dark.I say leave as is. I do see the faint barring. I think on a good specimen it would be a little more pronounced.
Secondaries: Dark grey, more clearly marked (as comment above). Redchicken9: here I have some color. I do not have a grown bird to look at closely at a spread wing, and this is not a usual stance to find photos from the British birds for me to look at. I would guess if we are going towards Punnett's cream legbars we would breed toward the cream here although it would take some time,
Coverts: Grey barred, tipped in cream. (BPS says some chestnut permissible, once again is there a bird in ASP with color leakage? We need a reference or guideline on how to describe this and/or permit, if desirable). Redchicken9: Mine may not be fully tipped in cream. Yes, and if possible add the "chestnut permissible" line.

Breast: Irregular dark grey and cream barring, defined in outline. Redchicken9: Yes for description. More or less for my males. Yes

Legs and Toes: Yellow. Redchicken9: Yes. Yes

Thanks, everyone. May add a picture more for breast and description for saddle feather color. Also didn't tackle crest color. OK this is near complete, apologies, but I have to scamper.

Please all look, I edited and I think it is now more complete. Please help in this process by providing review and comments. It is critical that we know this breed/ variety and its color. Next post, my thoughts on this.

 

[ChicKat]

redchicken9 -

could you refresh our brains and give us an idea of what's left so we can chip in if we are able....

 

[blackbirds13]

Quote: I've been busy at work - Mid-semester report cards - but will try to get to the tasks at hand.
I'm for the SOP as it stands. My males are all to young and the oldest is WAY to colorful and has a floppy comb.
I have no real opinion about adding 'some chestnut permissible' in some areas but not sure if chestnut is the term for the color in the hackles or saddle or in the secondaries... some of it may be gold. Also not sure it'll still be there or disappear once we get to a truly cream rooster or remain as part of the birds we have over here. I am hesitant to alter the SOP too much as I have not bred enough birds to really get a feel for what belongs with cream and what belongs with gold. All I have are theories. Thoughts in my head....and things up there can be quite unstable at times

 

[ChicKat]

Good insights blackbirds13,

It gives people something to measure against and look for as the baby boys grow out. And they do go through a lot of 'color changes' as they mature.

 

[redchicken9]

Cream Legbar Color – Male





Comb, Face and Wattles: Bright Red. Redchicken9: yes.

Beak: Yellow. (Here, I put yellow following the BPS, however the color ‘horn’ also shows up in ASP, examples leghorn beak color is horn; Plymouth rock, yellow. Horn may be a more natural yellow or a color dirtier than pure yellow, this is hard to say). Ok, the SOP defines horn as a broad term commonly used in describing various shadings of color in the beak (thanks Walt on the reminder to look at the glossary). Redchicken9: I think yellow is OK, but I'm still not fully certain. Below is a juvenile female, seems to be shading on her.




Eyes: Reddish bay. (BPS describes these as orange or red. ASP states reddish bay for a large number of bird eyes that I think may have the same eye color like leghorns, Plymouth rocks, wyandottes, javas, RIR, buckeyes, etc. Different eye descriptions include Minorcas, dark brown; black breasted red modern game have red eyes, while brown red modern game have black eyes). Redchicken9: Bay = light golden brown. Above female, but eye color is truly reddish bay. Yes.




Ear-lobes: Enamel white (or white). (BPS considers it as opaque, white or cream, slight pink markings OK. Here I believe it is a one color only description, with the other possible option being white. Leghorns, minorcas, blue andalusions, buff catalanas are enamel white; Sicilian buttercups are white). Redchicken9: the enamel-white has a satin white surface color, hmm. Going with yes here.


Crest: Cream and gray barred, (BPS some chestnut permissible). Redchicken9: Photo below is of a small crest, so it's hard to define how much is a true crest. I'd describe some of it like the pale straw barred with bright gold brown, another feather or two appears grey and cream. I think it needs to be described as barred, so I'm adding that in. Not certain if I need to add in irregular barring (see below).





Head (added): Hackle cream with infrequent, irregular barring. Redchicken9: as below.

Neck: Hackle cream with infrequent, irregular barring. (BPS: sparsely barred. From my just learned knowledge, regular barring is the black and white transverse pattern of the barred Plymouth Rocks. Irregular is seen in Dominiques, Hollands, Campines (V shaped), and Cuckoo Belgain Bearded d’Anvers Bantams. Dominiques and Barred Hollands are described as irregular, dark and light barred, stopping short of positive black and white. Ours are grey and cream. Here I don’t find another bird with barring and cream. Aside: CL barring is also due to dominate sex-linked factors like Barred Rocks, Dominiques, and Cuckoo groups). Redchicken9: Yes on the description, however my bird shows the colors of rust and lemon are specked in with the grey. The gold legbar neck hackles are pale straw, sparsely barred with gold and black. Would it seem to anyone that the gold legbar hackle description fits?








Back and Shoulders: Cream and dark grey irregular barring. (Here I don’t know whether to add in more. BPS: Some chestnut permissible. I haven’t yet seen in the ASP where a color leakage is mentioned on any other bird. I suspect, it’s like ear-lobes, ASP prefers a crisp color description. Here, those that know more, please comment).
Redchicken9: Yes. OK. May have more than some chestnut, but definitely have chestnut.




Saddle: Hackles cream barred with dark grey edged with cream. Redchicken9: Here, like with the neck hackles, my saddle hackles once again match the description of the gold legbar, which is pale straw barred with bright gold-brown, as far as possible from black.


(Update below)Tail: Evenly barred grey. Sickles are lighter barred to white. (Here again there is a color range in the sickles, which I’m OK with, but need to research if this is done in any other breeds). Redchicken9: Yes.

Tail: Main tail: Evenly barred grey.

Main and Lesser Sickles: Lighter barred to white.




Wings: (Updated language below)

Coverts: Grey barred, tipped in cream. (BPS says some chestnut permissible, once again is there a bird in ASP with color leakage? We need a reference or guideline on how to describe this and/or permit, if desirable). Redchicken9: Mine may not be fully tipped in cream.
Primaries: Dark grey, faintly barred. Some white permissible. (Here again does the ASP style allow). Redchicken9: Primaries are dark.
Secondaries: Dark grey, more clearly marked (as comment above). Redchicken9: here I have some color.

Wings: Bows : Dark grey, faintly barred. Some white permissible.

Coverts: Grey barred, tipped in cream, some chestnut permissible.

Primaries: Dark grey, faintly barred. Some white permissible.

Secondaries: Dark grey, more clearly barred.

Body and Fluff: Body: (Not denoted in BPS, this part SOP describes as the color exclusive of back and breast; specifically lower sides of body, abdomen and stern).

Fluff: (SOP indicates a need for color here, referring to the soft downy feathering on the inner side of the lower thighs and on the abdomen).

Breast: Irregular dark grey and cream barring, defined in outline. Redchicken9: Yes for description. More or less for my males.

Legs and Toes: Yellow. Redchicken9: Yes.

Undercolor of All Sections: (BPS lacks description; SOP states it’s the color of the lower or fluff portion of feathers, not visible when the feathers are in natural position).

Please all look, I edited and I think it is now more complete. Please help in this process by providing review and comments. It is critical that we know this breed/ variety and its color. Next post, my thoughts on this.

 

[redchicken9]

redchicken9 -

could you refresh our brains and give us an idea of what's left so we can chip in if we are able....

Language for male color review was updated 617, my review 603 lacked a few lines. I didn't get back to insert missing areas until now, still may be missing something, so if everyone could re-look at 617 or the parts in indigo blue above, I'd appreciate it. So far there is mine plus 3 reviews on male color. Let's have 2 more folks add in with their review. No one to date has shown their birds, as they review the color, this is a good part of the process. As a whole the cream legbars are off in color, noted by more than one poster, but there is a range. It is a positive to have clear understanding about what that range is.

Interesting, when I did my review my males have the color of the gold legbar in the neck hackles and saddle hackle. Is this the same for others? Even my former lightest roo looks by photos as having pale straw with bright gold brown saddle hackles. ChicKat, is this the same for Ice?

Next is female color language and review. Then I'll post all language and try to indicate where comments, concerns, or where questions still exist. After questions and outstanding comments are settled, it's a wrap up. We could ask Fowlman01 if he wishes to wordsmith then. When done, the group/club will have an APA formatted SOP for use at a later date. Five years is a very short time to achieve consistency in a breed/variety if it was imported and is being breed without consistency holding true to the breed/variety.

 

[ChicKat]

Interesting, when I did my review my males have the color of the gold legbar in the neck hackles and saddle hackle. Is this the same for others? Even my former lightest roo looks by photos as having pale straw with bright gold brown saddle hackles. ChicKat, is this the same for Ice?

I'm not where Ice is right now--- Infact..." I'm on the road again...." cue Willy Nelson. I can try to get some picture close ups. I'm wondering if this question will only be truly answered by a test mating to a silver hen by some of our cockerels to verify the cream gene.

That said.... Really kudos for everyone working on this and pushing to get the great draft of SOP that will help us know which of our hens and roosters to breed and which to put out to pasture....

So if two or three interested parties would step up and review the wording on color for male...and questions get answered and we finalize female.... It will be mission accomplished. Bravo.