Cream Legbars

[KPenley]

Good Question! It totally depends on your goals. If you just want autosexing blue egg layers, then no. If you want to show birds in the APA, maybe. If you want to be a part of getting the Cream variety birds accepted into the APA or be a trustworthy Cream variety breeder, then definitely yes. That is the first variety we're working on.
At a show all that really matters is what a bird looks and feels like to a judge. Your goal is to match a written standard as close as possible. Some of the genetically lighter gold birds look a lot like the genetically cream ones. So either could win if they have excellent type.

However, if your birds are genetically gold they will produce all gold offspring. If they are genetically gold carrying one copy of cream they could give you dark gold or cream or light gold offspring depending on the genetics of who they are paired with. Kind of like Blue Black Splash. Two cream parents will give you 100% cream offspring. Since the APA cares about consistency in a breed, having the highest number of consistent offspring is important right now (as long as they are consistently like the standard or approaching it). And if you sell birds as cream and they start to give gold offspring, or birds that lack cresting or have feathered legs, etc, you will not be well trusted. While there are many factors that we don't understand, like ChicKat said, there are some things that are easy to see in offspring. My first couple of years I had offspring all over the place. I removed the darker gold and red birds and now have pretty consistent offspring. Sure there is a range of cream and one line has lots of melanin (black), but they are all easily identifiable as Cream Legbars.

If you prefer the darker golds, reds, and browns of the gold birds, there is a group working hard to solidify this variety. Currently, I think it is stil being called Crele. Both Kathy and Tony on the Cream Legbar Club are the people to contact with your interest.

Best wishes with your birds!

Newbie question here- Does it matter whether the chickens are cream or gold or are we striving for cream birds?

 

[caychris]

One way to socialize "wild" breeds is to raise them with a more docile friendly breed.


I have raised some leghorns and a few other "Skittish breeds" with buff orps and pita pintas lately and all of those birds developed more friendly attitudes. For most chickens its a monkey see monkey do activity. Once one sees that another is getting special treatment they tend to follow suit. Hormones and Insticts still win out on occasion but they do seem to develop a more peaceful disposition.

Hand feeding (even if its only setting out feed at defined times and quantities) helps a lot too. They begin to recognize that you are the source of something good. It also helps if they are kept a little hungry between feeding times.

Food and attention are keys but getting some birds who are more naturally friendly seems to help them recognize the patterns.


I have one CLB pullet raised with some Pita Pinta pullets and the Pitas are so friendly and sweet even from chicks they were first to the hand asking to be picked up fed paid attention to etc. They are still easy to call to you and pet and pick up. The CLB follows suit to an extent and since she has started laying now she is also as quite easy to handle.



I have the best broody in the world right now. She is a hatchery Buff Orp that previous to this was our family lap chicken. She is just a love with most anyone. We had her setting on some eggs that turned out to be duds. So I got her 3 feed store chicks. She took to them perfectly. She has been raising them for almost 3 weeks now. She has never made an aggressive move against any of us whenever we have picked up chicks and now that they are growing up a bit she will even call them to us whenever she is getting special attention. They are friendly little bugs too not afraid of us as long as mom is around and we can even call them over as long as mom is nearby.

She would puff and squawk a little when nesting but a single stroke would calm her down and she never pecked at any of us. (Now another chicken too close to babies is a whole different story)

I really wish she could raise all my chicks all the time.

 

[ChicKat]

Good Question! It totally depends on your goals. If you just want autosexing blue egg layers, then no. If you want to show birds in the APA, maybe. If you want to be a part of getting the Cream variety birds accepted into the APA or be a trustworthy Cream variety breeder, then definitely yes. That is the first variety we're working on.
At a show all that really matters is what a bird looks and feels like to a judge. Your goal is to match a written standard as close as possible. Some of the genetically lighter gold birds look a lot like the genetically cream ones. So either could win if they have excellent type.

However, if your birds are genetically gold they will produce all gold offspring. If they are genetically gold carrying one copy of cream they could give you dark gold or cream or light gold offspring depending on the genetics of who they are paired with. Kind of like Blue Black Splash. Two cream parents will give you 100% cream offspring. Since the APA cares about consistency in a breed, having the highest number of consistent offspring is important right now (as long as they are consistently like the standard or approaching it). And if you sell birds as cream and they start to give gold offspring, or birds that lack cresting or have feathered legs, etc, you will not be well trusted. While there are many factors that we don't understand, like ChicKat said, there are some things that are easy to see in offspring. My first couple of years I had offspring all over the place. I removed the darker gold and red birds and now have pretty consistent offspring. Sure there is a range of cream and one line has lots of melanin (black), but they are all easily identifiable as Cream Legbars.

If you prefer the darker golds, reds, and browns of the gold birds, there is a group working hard to solidify this variety. Currently, I think it is stil being called Crele. Both Kathy and Tony on the Cream Legbar Club are the people to contact with your interest.

Best wishes with your birds!

As always -- good advice from KPenley....
A new thread has been started by KendyF to research and support colorful CLs and you can find it here:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...t-breeding-to-the-proposed-cream-standards/50

The research I did, discussions of photos, ideas and some conclusions are in this thread:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...ection-for-alternative-legbars-sop-discussion

 

[ChicKat]

One way to socialize "wild" breeds is to raise them with a more docile friendly breed.


I have raised some leghorns and a few other "Skittish breeds" with buff orps and pita pintas lately and all of those birds developed more friendly attitudes. For most chickens its a monkey see monkey do activity. Once one sees that another is getting special treatment they tend to follow suit. Hormones and Insticts still win out on occasion but they do seem to develop a more peaceful disposition.

Hand feeding (even if its only setting out feed at defined times and quantities) helps a lot too. They begin to recognize that you are the source of something good. It also helps if they are kept a little hungry between feeding times.

Food and attention are keys but getting some birds who are more naturally friendly seems to help them recognize the patterns.


I have one CLB pullet raised with some Pita Pinta pullets and the Pitas are so friendly and sweet even from chicks they were first to the hand asking to be picked up fed paid attention to etc. They are still easy to call to you and pet and pick up. The CLB follows suit to an extent and since she has started laying now she is also as quite easy to handle.



I have the best broody in the world right now. She is a hatchery Buff Orp that previous to this was our family lap chicken. She is just a love with most anyone. We had her setting on some eggs that turned out to be duds. So I got her 3 feed store chicks. She took to them perfectly. She has been raising them for almost 3 weeks now. She has never made an aggressive move against any of us whenever we have picked up chicks and now that they are growing up a bit she will even call them to us whenever she is getting special attention. They are friendly little bugs too not afraid of us as long as mom is around and we can even call them over as long as mom is nearby.

She would puff and squawk a little when nesting but a single stroke would calm her down and she never pecked at any of us. (Now another chicken too close to babies is a whole different story)

I really wish she could raise all my chicks all the time.

Good info caychris! thanks for the insights.

This morning I wanted to pick up a little cockerel from my latest hatch. When they were babies in the brooder---easily handled -- Now that they have been outdoors for a bit...they act elusive. --

The sole survivor of the hatch previous to THAT one -- (sister of the ugly boys that I just processed last night, finally) -- is with these little ones. She is the 'Wendy' to the 'lost boys' - kind of thing (although only one is a boy)--- when I picked up the little guy -- of course he hollered -- and interestingly that triggered the mother-hen protective response in the 'Wendy' chicken (her real name is Princess Charlotte Elizabeth Diana)---- so Charlotte was ready to go to the little guy's defense if he really WAS in danger -- but she saw it was me -- so she just watched. For him.... I wanted to count the points on his comb.... yay 6!

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Thanks for the info Ant Farm -
Centrachid hs been around a long time on BYC - so the information is always interesting. I also know that most say that disposition is inherited.... it is just a bit down the ladder on priorities now. Good info. Thanks!

You are SO right about chickens being easy to handle...it is best for them and best for us. They aren't stressed when they need examination etc. - and we don't exhaust ourselves trying to deal with them. Contrarary to how I may sound...LOL -- I would enjoy a more pet quality I have to admit---- but I don't much hold it against a pullet or hen if she is stand-offish. You have pinpointed something I can work on with my flock of hooligans. And it is a factor of time -- I was gone for the first week of life of two cockerels -- their sisters were all sold off --- and the chicken-sitter took good care of them -- but those two were never 'friendly' - during their baby hood or their short juvenile exhistance. -- So getting them human-friendly is part of conditioning.

Just before I was leaving for a 5 1/2 hour drive to the ranch my afraid-of-me cockerel got out of his pen.... I chased him around for 1/2 hour and never caught him -- went through the woods in places I had never been before -- that's for sure -- eventually I got him to run back into his pen -- or he would be a gonner. There are some genetics in him - that only he has that I want to use in my breeding -- so I'm glad it ended that way -- rather than him being feed for predators who live out there..... I have a friend that never allows her chickens to eat until they have first eaten some out of her hand.... Now if I did that -- I would be out there all day long -- and I have far far far fewer chickens than she has. (seems like much less patience as well).

Good insights -- thanks!

You know, I never would have really considered it before, but once I got my greyhounds, I realized what a huge difference it made. They were retired from racing, and were VERY used to being handled. I could do almost anything - it makes a huge difference to be able to easily tend and dress a wound, change a bandage, or give an injection to a 70 pound dog in pain with really sharp teeth (all muscle) - they ended up with better care because of it. Froggy even let me put my hands in her mouth and scrape her teeth (!), if you can believe it (good, because of the risk of anesthesia for her otherwise).

These three CL pullets were skittish in that 6 to 12 week range, and when one got out of her pen and it was so dramatic to try to catch her, when she was so vulnerable to being picked off by our local hawks, that I realized I needed to at least try to have them more hand tame just so I could catch them or tend wounds without giving them heart attacks. I mean, how on earth does one do bumble foot treatment if they're freaking out about being held?

(I'm sure I'll get better at catching chickens as time goes on, but I really suck at it now...).

chicken pickin, that's very useful info on your lovely rooster. It's making me hopeful about considering having one one day.

- Ant Farm

 

[napdognewfie]

They are like pavlovs dogs. Every time you feed them call them. Come and get it. Hurry. And just keep repeating it while they start eating. They will soon come running as soon as you call. If you get new birds the old ones will teach them.

It is pretty funny cause if they think treats might be coming they run flat out to be first to get to you. You can teach them to come to you or the coop.

Mine come to kitty kitty.

 

[ChicKat]

You know, I never would have really considered it before, but once I got my greyhounds, I realized what a huge difference it made. They were retired from racing, and were VERY used to being handled. I could do almost anything - it makes a huge difference to be able to easily tend and dress a wound, change a bandage, or give an injection to a 70 pound dog in pain with really sharp teeth (all muscle) - they ended up with better care because of it. Froggy even let me put my hands in her mouth and scrape her teeth (!), if you can believe it (good, because of the risk of anesthesia for her otherwise).

These three CL pullets were skittish in that 6 to 12 week range, and when one got out of her pen and it was so dramatic to try to catch her, when she was so vulnerable to being picked off by our local hawks, that I realized I needed to at least try to have them more hand tame just so I could catch them or tend wounds without giving them heart attacks. I mean, how on earth does one do bumble foot treatment if they're freaking out about being held?

(I'm sure I'll get better at catching chickens as time goes on, but I really suck at it now...).

chicken pickin, that's very useful info on your lovely rooster. It's making me hopeful about considering having one one day.

- Ant Farm

They are like pavlovs dogs. Every time you feed them call them. Come and get it. Hurry. And just keep repeating it while they start eating. They will soon come running as soon as you call. If you get new birds the old ones will teach them.

It is pretty funny cause if they think treats might be coming they run flat out to be first to get to you. You can teach them to come to you or the coop.

Mine come to kitty kitty.

Agree with both of you....

Ant Farm --- mine are so funny they don't like being picked up -- but they don't mind standing on your arm. (THEY have to be the ones in control) ---It is so strange. When they are fluff balls in the brooder -- they are like little toys and you can pick them up at will -- but it seems even before the 4-weeks of brooder life is over they don't want to be picked up -- but will perch on my finger, hand or arm. (then try to walk up to my shoulder) --- They have a mind of their own.

My oldest rooster and hen once had bumblefoot and I used tricide neo (for fish) in a soak....and they have recovered -- and that was two years ago, I think. I had concerns about them flipping out while being handled...and about soaking their feet for 5-minutes at a time. "Here, chicken - stand in this water for 5-minutes". But being treated they were good as gold. Same with bathing them -- Once that nice warm water is up to their wings -- they are calm and peaceful. They don't want to be picked up - or have their freedom restricted, but once they are picked up -- they are perfectly calm.

As far as handling and catching -- I really prefer to get them when it is dark -- either after sundown or before sun up--- and they are on the roost. If I need to do something with them in the morning - I sometimes put them in pet carrier the night before. Really a stressless catch - no high blood pressure, no ruffled feathers. :O)

napdognewfie - true about classical conditioning - good observation.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Agree with both of you....

Ant Farm --- mine are so funny they don't like being picked up -- but they don't mind standing on your arm. (THEY have to be the ones in control) ---It is so strange. When they are fluff balls in the brooder -- they are like little toys and you can pick them up at will -- but it seems even before the 4-weeks of brooder life is over they don't want to be picked up -- but will perch on my finger, hand or arm. (then try to walk up to my shoulder) --- They have a mind of their own.

Oh, mine are EXACTLY like that. "I will decide when I will sit on Mommy..." Paula likes to sneak up behind me when I'm bending over to replace the waterers and jump up on my back/butt. They think they're cats, I tell you...

My oldest rooster and hen once had bumblefoot and I used tricide neo (for fish) in a soak....and they have recovered -- and that was two years ago, I think. I had concerns about them flipping out while being handled...and about soaking their feet for 5-minutes at a time. "Here, chicken - stand in this water for 5-minutes". But being treated they were good as gold. Same with bathing them -- Once that nice warm water is up to their wings -- they are calm and peaceful. They don't want to be picked up - or have their freedom restricted, but once they are picked up -- they are perfectly calm.

Good to know!

As far as handling and catching -- I really prefer to get them when it is dark -- either after sundown or before sun up--- and they are on the roost. If I need to do something with them in the morning - I sometimes put them in pet carrier the night before. Really a stressless catch - no high blood pressure, no ruffled feathers. :O)

Ideally, yes. When you realize they fly MUCH better than you anticipated, and need to catch them outside their pen in the middle of the afternoon, not so much.

- Ant Farm

 

[ChicopeeBrookFM]

Does that mean that a yellow down poullet and yellow down cockerel will produce double cream chicks?

 

[ChicKat]

Does that mean that a yellow down poullet and yellow down cockerel will produce double cream chicks?

Do you have picts of yellow downed?

This is from Punnett's article in genetics journal as examples of the autosexing chicks from Legbars.:

This is what I would look for/expect in autosexing chicks. The dorsal stripes indicate 'wild type' (i.e. e+ at the E-Locus) and the white head spot indicates the barring genes are present.