Cream Legbars

[chrissyr]

 

[chrissyr]

 

[chrissyr]

Ok, so I'm having issues uploading, and they don't seem to upload in great quality from my phone.
So my issue is the ones with the bigger body have wrinkles and huge combs, but they aren't showing up in these pics.not that I can see.

 

[ChicKat]

Ok, so I'm having issues uploading, and they don't seem to upload in great quality from my phone.
So my issue is the ones with the bigger body have wrinkles and huge combs, but they aren't showing up in these pics.not that I can see.

If you right mouse click on your image and choose open in a new tab, or open in a new window-- you will get larger sized picts.

ETA - the theory about size of crest and effect it has on the comb is that a very large crest will wrinkle the comb....

We are expecting it to take some generations of breeding legbars to get it 'right'.

 

[ChicKat]

I will have to check but the hens I am sure are different. Crele old english and crele leghorn hens are more barred.

Someone (YOU know who you are!!

) gave me this link to a Crele Pendeseca - KP - you may want to check this one out too. Not sure if the APA has accepted it as of yet....

http://www.juststruttinfarm.com/photos.html

seventh one down on the left column.... Very similar to the color patterns of the 'more colorful' Cream Legbars. white or pink legs however, I believe that they are autosexing.

Flying - the OE Crele seem a bit odd -- they may be what Chris 09 is calling an incomplete Crele....i.e. the males are single barred....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris09

I got this information from:

Old English Game Bantams as Bred and Shown in the United States.

Catlin (1991) describes how he made his own strain of Creles by crossing two Crele males with two unrelated Black Breasted Red females. From the mating all the sons were dark
(intermediate) Creles and all the daughters pure Creles. By crossing first generation males and females he extracted some pure Crele males to go with the pure Crele females already obtained.
Wolf (1991):

SIRE.....................DAM..................SONS.............................................DAUGHTERS
Crele....................Crele............100% Crele.......................................100% Crele
Crele....................B.B. Red......100% Intermediate...........................100% Crele
Intermediate.......Crele...........50% Crele & 50% Intermediate.........50% Crele & 50% B.B. Red
Intermediate.......B.B. Red......50% Intermediate & 50% B.B. Red....50% Crele & 50% B.B. Red
B.B. Red..............Crele............100% Intermediate...........................100% B.B. Red

Intermediate
In genetic term an "intermediate" male is heterozygous for barring (Bb). Females carry but one sex chromosome so a B- female would be called hemizygous; a BB (Black Breasted) male would be homozygous for barring.

Chris
ETA - here is the link for the thread where I got Chris09's quote. One of the posters in there even used the Punnett gold Legbar formula as a recipe for Crele -- the thread is from 2010. The biggest difference I see is that the OEG uses BBR as a starting point and Punnett used Gold Duckwing (brown Leghorn).
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/282315/crele/60

sorry that Chris's neat formatting got messed up in the cut-and-paste.


Don't know much about Pendeseca - but a google search on image provided this female:

Crele Pendeseca Hen

Author David Scrivener -- has this to say in the barring section of his 'some poultry genetics' chapter in the book Exhibition Poultry Keeping

"When the barring gene is applied to the Wild Type pattern, the 'Crele' variety is produced"

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

My Legbar Roo

If you google crele old english bantams, you will see what I think of as crele. The males are fine barred, the females have distinct white barring. To me, a good crele is simply a wild type/BBR with barring. Or if you were to take a barred bird like hatchery style barred rocks and replaced the black with the color bars of wildtype. I bred a crele OEGB male on light brown phoenix bantams to make crele phoenix. The pullets from that mating show clear barring, even in the F1. To me, I always think of legbar hens as being more wildtype color with faint offwhite smudges in the tail/wings, and some hint of barring in the hackle, not even close to the defined barring of crele. When I get spare time, I'll do some more comparisons. For now, I am swamped with calving season at work, then winter prep at home so my mind is everywhere else

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

I was just thinking- the bielefelders are more what I would consider crele. Where can I find the standard for the gold legbars, do they have it online? If so, I'll do some comparissons with the crele color found in OEGB.

 

[ChicKat]

If you google crele old english bantams, you will see what I think of as crele. The males are fine barred, the females have distinct white barring. To me, a good crele is simply a wild type/BBR with barring. Or if you were to take a barred bird like hatchery style barred rocks and replaced the black with the color bars of wildtype. I bred a crele OEGB male on light brown phoenix bantams to make crele phoenix. The pullets from that mating show clear barring, even in the F1. To me, I always think of legbar hens as being more wildtype color with faint offwhite smudges in the tail/wings, and some hint of barring in the hackle, not even close to the defined barring of crele. When I get spare time, I'll do some more comparisons. For now, I am swamped with calving season at work, then winter prep at home so my mind is everywhere else

I love calving season -- we had two (ETA Spring/Fall) -- the calves are so cute.... aww But you are working with dairy right? I was with beef...still cute little critters.

Here's a pict from Chris09 of the OEGB Crele based on BBR

This is a quality bird---that Chris posted...but the hatcheries sell similar (wide barring) looking Crele - they say sexability is 80% -- these are based on BBR (black breasted red)--- Very dark.
http://www.cacklehatchery.com/images/crele_OEG_Bantam_hen.jpg


Here's the Crele OEGB hen

from cackle hatchery crele OEGB hen
hatchery male from cackle

when I first saw OEGB Crele male I thought it was single barred. At any rate - doubtless a lot of black pigment.


Crele Leghorns - have a definite pattern where the duckwing shows up and what was solid black before becomes barred....

Upper left gold crele leghorn - lower right silver crele leghorn - and of course technically according to Scrivener the Cream legbar would be a Cream Crele - (Wild Type + Barring) I'm not 100% certain why the OEGB has such a different Crele pattern... but if it is based on wild-type then it is Crele....

btw David Scrivener is a Panel A poultry judge and is Chairman of the Rare Poultry Society.

You can google the books he has written.....:O)


Oh LQQK -- I just found photos of the chicks from OEGB

That's from cackle's site. who could resist a chick?

do you think the oegb grow up with the bars taking up more room because they are bantams?

sorry folks, I couldn't resist.

 

[chrissyr]

If you right mouse click on your image and choose open in a new tab, or open in a new window-- you will get larger sized picts.

ETA - the theory about size of crest and effect it has on the comb is that a very large crest will wrinkle the comb.... 

We are expecting it to take some generations of breeding legbars to get it 'right'.  

I may have to do it from my computer.
Some of mine have no crests but very large combs.
It seems the crest cause wrinkles for sure .
None of mine are perfect. They all have either comb issues, or the one that i like looks really scrawny.
My dilemma is which do I cull for first?
I'm just not sure which trait to sacrifice
I've downsized on all my boys from other breeds lately. Now it's their turn .

 

[chicken pickin]

@chrissyr how many males are you deciding between? Also what is there age?

It is very difficult to narrow down the choices isn't it, especially when they all have good and bad points. First I will start by saying that the males in the pics you provided all appear incorrectly colored gold, so color currently is one thing you don't need to look at the moment. So with color set aside I think for me personally I would look for one of the larger males with a nice long back and low tail angle and wings tucked up high. Look over the SOP and try to match one of your males with the body type that is described there(to the best of your ability). Comb and crest doesn't need to be a concern at the moment and can be worked on in future generations. Also once you narrow down your males with the best weight and type you could take in to consideration eye color and lobe color. That should help you narrow down your choices.


edited to add - It is suggested to not use non-crested Cream Legbar for breeding. So it may be wise to choose a crested male.