Cream Legbars

[PDPercherons]

In this case me bringing it up has nothing to do with my lack of years, or playing at being a "breeder". It's simply genuine concern as I'm more accustomed to genetic diversity being a value in livestock with line breeding and inbreeding done under certain circumstances but not at extremely high percentages very often. I am very understanding at this point that chickens can obviously be bred so incestuously as to not cause issues that utilizing the birds at hand should be sufficient for us here in the States. Depending on any future birds imported though and their quality, I'm sure many would be more than willing to utilize the new stock.

Man is continually "improving" livestock. It's a never ending cycle no matter what animals you raise. This is why it's a lifelong journey for those willing to dedicate and stick with it.

What are the issues with auto sexing, are some chicks not distinctly different? Is it with certain lines? I haven't run across much of this yet during my reading other than people puzzling over head spots.

 

[PDPercherons]

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

What are the issues with auto sexing, are some chicks not distinctly different? Is it with certain lines? I haven't run across much of this yet during my reading other than people puzzling over head spots.

Well, my take on it is that one shouldn't have to puzzle over ANY of one's CL chicks. It should be obvious. Ambiguous chicks at hatch should be culled/not bred. JMHO...

- Ant Farm

 

[fowlman01]

In this case me bringing it up has nothing to do with my lack of years, or playing at being a "breeder". It's simply genuine concern as I'm more accustomed to genetic diversity being a value in livestock with line breeding and inbreeding done under certain circumstances but not at extremely high percentages very often. I am very understanding at this point that chickens can obviously be bred so incestuously as to not cause issues that utilizing the birds at hand should be sufficient for us here in the States. Depending on any future birds imported though and their quality, I'm sure many would be more than willing to utilize the new stock.

Man is continually "improving" livestock. It's a never ending cycle no matter what animals you raise. This is why it's a lifelong journey for those willing to dedicate and stick with it.

What are the issues with auto sexing, are some chicks not distinctly different? Is it with certain lines? I haven't run across much of this yet during my reading other than people puzzling over head spots.

Breeding chickens to a specific goal is not like breeding large livestock, dogs or anything else. You can get away with certain incestuous mating and profit from those matings.....but you have to know the rules. ..one is you don't mate brother and sister together unless that is all you have.

As noted, sexing day olds should be obvious and that is not the case with all lines. It is called an auto sexing breed for a reason.

Walt

 

[GaryDean26]

I'm not sure that a re-creation using birds in the States will ever work. The British used British Leghorns, which are different in type than our Leghorns. Everything they used is different here in the States. If you imported the original breeds used, the recreation would be much easier.....but then you might as well import the real thing. As far as the gene pool being shallow..... that is something I hear only from "breeders" who can't figure out how to make chickens match a written Standard. If you know what you are doing, it is very seldom that you need outside blood. Needing more genetic diversity are the buzz words for beginner breeders. My Leghorns....as an example have not had any new blood put into them in over 40 years. They are doing just fine. The Cream Legbars are a very complex arrangement of genes and not something the average beginner will have success with, without help from long time breeders. I have seen significant progress within the breed the last few years by a dedicated few. Keep up the good work.

Walt

1) I was setting up a plan to split the pea comb from the blue egg gene. The linkage between those two genes it to the point that you are only likely to get 1 out of 16 birds with a single comb that laid a blue egg. In a grow out group of 64 birds if 50% are cockerels that leaves you with 32 pullets. if 50% have pea combs that leaves you with 16 that are single combed. So in that group of 64 chicks you are only likely to get one pullet that is single combed and lays a blue egg. The creation of the Cream Legbar was done with a Chilean Hen that carried one copy of the blue egg gene. She would NOT have had a pea comb. The early reports of blue egg laying hens in South American were single combed birds. The British Auracana lines didn't make it to the UK until after the creation of the Cream Legbar and those lines had pea combs.

2) My only plan for introducing the Cresting was a Barn Yard mix that laid white eggs and had a crest similar to the Cream Legbar. I may have used her to introduce the crest but was going to work on the Blue eggs and Single Comb first and really didn't know if I could even tackle that.

3) Yes the type of the Englidh Leghorn is different that the APA leghorn. I also didn' have plans to get to the English leghorn type.

The Creation of the Cream Legbar in England took 2-3 decades. My recreation would have taken just as lone. With the import of Cream Legbars from the UK I decided to spend 25 years improving those lines rather than 25 years trying to get where everyone else was already at with the imported birds.

 

[PDPercherons]

Thank you Walt for that explanation. My intention is to stick with the Rees birds at this point and depending on what I get, if I get anything, either incorporate or run separately the Rees/C birds. As this progresses I'll be picking brains to learn as much as I can. In a way, thank god for the internet. Brings people together that normally may not be.

 

[TherryChicken]

Thanks for sharing your pics.  It seems like I heard that slow feathering produces better barring.  Can anyone add to that either way?
I've had that happen too, usually when cockerels were competing with each other.  The behavior did not persist, but I had the same reaction as you.
What did you do for the wounded pullet?

.
I seperated her kept her clean and used veterycin. She's healing very nicely

 

[ChicKat]

Thank you Walt for that explanation. My intention is to stick with the Rees birds at this point and depending on what I get, if I get anything, either incorporate or run separately the Rees/C birds. As this progresses I'll be picking brains to learn as much as I can. In a way, thank god for the internet. Brings people together that normally may not be.

Maybe too, since you got your starter birds from Tim -- and he has a good eye and has discarded some of the weaknesses that have been noted in the JR line----you are already ahead of the game. ;O)

Also, I noted that you have Isbars. - I love my Isbars! -- and recall that there were a lot of hatchability problems and survivability problems with the first line of Isbars GFF imported and sent out to the country. They abandoned that line and brought in a second bunch -- but the second imports lacked the dark eyes that were so gorgeous and the second imports were giving some very unusual offspring to folks - so there is a LOT of value in keeping the first line going here in the states.

Part of the hatchability and survivability problem, we theoretically attributed to the inbreeding -- and folks worked to source at the least different premises, differing parents etc. -- Rather than the brother-sister pairings that most probably started out with from GFF.

From what I understand this has been a big help to the breed - and Isbars are now more hatchable and more robust -- I have only one of the original line left -- sadly, due to raccoon predation -- and I have some very nice birds that match what I am looking for in Isbars to breed this spring -- but they aren't the first imports. --- so I will be mixing the first import bird -- which I think is the truer Isbar with some from Omega Hills which are nice healthy and acceptable birds -- and then select for the traits that drew me to Isbars in the first place---hopefully passed from my first import bird in combination with Omega Hills.

In some ways - this may be part of the concern with the shallow gene pool of Legbars -- could they get as close to the brink as Isbars...of which I believe the legend says at one time only 200 birds were left in the world in their native land.

The Cream Legbar is considered at risk in the UK by the Rare Breeds Survival Trust. Here is a link to an article:
http://www.rbst.org.uk/Rare-and-Native-Breeds/Poultry/Chickens/Cream-Legbar

This male in the Rare Breeds Survival Trust photo - shows the definite contrast between the cream hackles and the white earlobe -- with the SOP described dark gray barring on the chest

In many ways he provides an interesting contrast to the Rees line males.

so to circle back to the point -- in UK they are considered at risk -- and our own experience with some chickens (Isbar) that had a number of probably brother-sister pairings that had rather dismal results -- would make one cautious and attentive to the gene pool for CLs -- JMO. I think that PDPercherons has a valid point for our consideration as we continue to raise CLs.

 

[miss heny]

Okay, as a person who may will be getting these birds sometime next year and are getting Isbars this spring is inbreeding a high issue with both breeds? If so would it be best to get different substrains to make each breeding flock more "diverse"?

I am slowly developing my flock of black Swedish hens and I hold suck plans on doing that with them in hopes of developing my own strain

 

[PDPercherons]

I think because of what I've learned so far it's easy to see why I'm happy about my chicks from Tim. He has kindly offered help and I'm not too proud to say I will seek the guidance.

My Isbar eggs suffer greatly for shipping to me. Last time I lost everything. This time I have 7 left of 30. I sought birds that looked large, of good type. The other was a variety of lines. We will see. If I lose out again I may just give up there either permanently or for a bit.