Cream Legbars

[GaryDean26]

OK, so I have about 15 cockerels to choose from right now. They're all about 10 weeks old roughly. I'd like to start to narrow them down a bit and take some to swaps to unload a few. What are some things I can look for to narrow down my selections? I know fuzzy barring is one. I have one or two with very crisp barring that I'm excited about but also 1 or 2 that have very fizzy barring. What else should I look for?

I sorted through a similar sized batch of cockerels a few weeks ago. They were 9 weeks old. At that age there isn't a lot you can go on.

Things that are important for me to watch in my flock right now are 1) Crest 2) Ear lobs 3) combs 4) Tails 5) backs 6) width 7) breasts 8) legs, 9)color.

I could tell who had the best crest and who had the worse crest so that was one of my culling criterion. It was too early to see who was going to have solid white ear lobes and who wasn't. That is something that I couldn't use at this age so I plan to keep about about 1/3 of the cockerels to fill out and mature more to get a better look at the ear lobes. Combs were a toss up at this age. I could see who had irregular serration and a who had combs folding forward, but at this age the combs are NOT fully grown and those with a light wave may turn out with straight combs while those with straight combs may turn out with a bend in their comb, etc. I favor those with straighter combs at this age. At this age I could see who had sharp junctions with the back and those who had too high of tail angles, but as they continue to grow the high tails could come down, the lower tails could come up, etc. I favored those that had lower tails and those that had more fan/fullness to them. I could see who had longer backs and who had shorter backs who had bends in their back who didn't etc. Again this is something that could change in the next 10 weeks and next 30 weeks but at this age I favor those with the the best length to the back without curves or sharp junctions with the tail. At this age I could see who had wider legs with out a lot of narrowing from the shoulders to the hips. I favored those with the least narrowing and widest apart legs. I could see who had the fullest breast and who had breast that were too lean. I favor those with the fullest roundest breast. Thin breasts or a straight lined breast in the profile don't pass. I could see who had long legs and who had short legs. I favor those with long legs. The long legs could develop weak hocks so you have to be careful, but those with longer legs have more room to fill out as they mature. Color is hard to evaluate at this age. The common flaws that I see (White sickle feathers, miss matched hackle.saddle feathers, light breast color, etc.) won't show up until later on. So at 10 weeks old one of my most useful criterion for sorting cockerels is growth weights, and vigor (How does he carry himself, how active is he during the day, etc.) . 2/3rd have to go and 1/3 get to stay so I pick my favorites, cull my least favorites and just do my best with sorting the ones in the middle.

 

[sol2go]

Can I be really dense and stupid and ask someone to remind me again what "double cream" looks like? (In either a new chick or an adult.) Is it related to how dark they are, or how gold vs non gold they are? (Cream is the diluter that takes "gold" toward "silver" right?) In my current batch of seven pullets most are gold-ish, but two are definitely cream and not gold in the hackles (both Paula's girls) - but they are also dark/melanized. Trying to get the lingo right. I know folks have discussed it before A LOT - but I think my poor brain never quite gets the "double cream" thing when describing APPEARANCE.

Or, more likely, whenever anyone says "double cream" it makes me hungry and I get distracted and head into the kitchen for coffee and a pastry.

(Does this thread make my butt look big?!

)

- Ant Farm

Cream Legbars are a gold based bird (let's leave silver out of the discussion).

So if you can identify the gold and where it should be expressed, that is an important starting point.
In the males, the gold is found in the crest, the hackles, the saddle feathers and the wings (primary/secondaries).
Other "colors", i.e. "chestnut", may be found on some areas such as the crest, shoulders & back, but should be very limited.

In the females gold is concentrated in the crest and hackle feathers, although it also influences the body color.

When they are homozygous for cream, i.e. both parents have contributed a cream gene so the offspring is "double for cream", then those areas of the body which express gold will be diluted to cream. Cream is significantly lighter than gold. A pitcher of cream is a good visual. Whipping cream that has been developed into a very pale buttery color is another good visual. Please note that all of the gold is diluted, not just some areas.

Most males have mismatched hackle and saddle feathers, which means the hackle feathers are lacking gold while the saddle feathers are clearly gold. The top of the hackle feathers may express gold which then disappears toward the bottom of the hackle feathers, as if the gold is doing a fade from top to bottom. This "halo" effect reminds me of the fade in Marans hackle feathers (which is not desirable). When the gold is diluted to cream, the hackle and saddle feathers still look a bit mismatched because the saddle feathers may have less definition/barring.

The best tell for females is a nicely contrasted hackle - to - body feathers. The hackle feathers clearly standout from the body color. This is still true even if the bird has a black crest, or heavily barred hackle feathers, and is generally more melanized.

Here's two hens with black crests that are sisters, the top hen is gold, the bottom hen is cream.
You may also be able to see the diffuse gold through the body of the top hen.



Here's two hens with gold/cream crests. The one on the left has a gold crest and gold hackles, the one on the right has a cream crest and cream hackles.
They are sisters, see parents below.


Here's their parents, some of my early stock. The hen is cream and the rooster appears gold.


From this mating I learned that the rooster appears gold but is heterozygous for cream (has one copy of cream), i.e. is "split for cream".
His gold offspring from this mating are also split for cream.
His cream offspring from this mating have two copies of gold, and two copies of cream which dilutes the gold (i.e. double for cream).
He also has a lot of chestnut.

Here's a different cream rooster and hen, so you can see their hackles are the same color.
The hen has the advantage of contrasting body feathers, while the rooster tends to look more uniform across the body unless he has areas of chestnut.
(his rival was outside the fence...)


And finally, the extremes in my breeding flocks: a very cream hen in the back and a decidedly gold hen in the front.


I have been able to project gold vs cream in my flocks from their down colors.
Here's some pretty typical cream examples. The pullet has a cream crest (not black).



These two feathered in gold.



Hope that was helpful. This is what I have learned from my flocks.

 

[GaryDean26]

The two chicks at the bottom look red enhanced too.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Quote:
Thanks - that helps a lot to see what people are talking about. Also explains some different looks among siblings (it looks as though Paula, now deceased, was the only mother who threw chicks that had anything even close to a cream color, all others more gold). I still have my personal preferences along the spectrum (not liking the really light birds, like the extreme you showed below), but now I have a feel for what language people are using to describe appearances.

Once again I will express my strong wish that there not be a tug of war between whether these nearly white birds or the more gold birds is preferred in the SOP - I think there is room for both.

Thanks!

- Ant Farm

 

[duluthralphie]

Cream Legbars are a gold based bird (let's leave silver out of the discussion).

So if you can identify the gold and where it should be expressed, that is an important starting point.
In the males, the gold is found in the crest, the hackles, the saddle feathers and the wings (primary/secondaries).
Other "colors", i.e. "chestnut", may be found on some areas such as the crest, shoulders & back, but should be very limited.

In the females gold is concentrated in the crest and hackle feathers, although it also influences the body color.

When they are homozygous for cream, i.e. both parents have contributed a cream gene so the offspring is "double for cream", then those areas of the body which express gold will be diluted to cream. Cream is significantly lighter than gold. A pitcher of cream is a good visual. Whipping cream that has been developed into a very pale buttery color is another good visual. Please note that all of the gold is diluted, not just some areas.

Most males have mismatched hackle and saddle feathers, which means the hackle feathers are lacking gold while the saddle feathers are clearly gold. The top of the hackle feathers may express gold which then disappears toward the bottom of the hackle feathers, as if the gold is doing a fade from top to bottom. This "halo" effect reminds me of the fade in Marans hackle feathers (which is not desirable). When the gold is diluted to cream, the hackle and saddle feathers still look a bit mismatched because the saddle feathers may have less definition/barring.

The best tell for females is a nicely contrasted hackle - to - body feathers. The hackle feathers clearly standout from the body color. This is still true even if the bird has a black crest, or heavily barred hackle feathers, and is generally more melanized.

Here's two hens with black crests that are sisters, the top hen is gold, the bottom hen is cream.
You may also be able to see the diffuse gold through the body of the top hen.



Here's two hens with gold/cream crests. The one on the left has a gold crest and gold hackles, the one on the right has a cream crest and cream hackles.
They are sisters, see parents below.


Here's their parents, some of my early stock. The hen is cream and the rooster appears gold.


From this mating I learned that the rooster appears gold but is heterozygous for cream (has one copy of cream), i.e. is "split for cream".
His gold offspring from this mating are also split for cream.
His cream offspring from this mating have two copies of gold, and two copies of cream which dilutes the gold (i.e. double for cream).
He also has a lot of chestnut.

Here's a different cream rooster and hen, so you can see their hackles are the same color.
The hen has the advantage of contrasting body feathers, while the rooster tends to look more uniform across the body unless he has areas of chestnut.
(his rival was outside the fence...)


And finally, the extremes in my breeding flocks: a very cream hen in the back and a decidedly gold hen in the front.


I have been able to project gold vs cream in my flocks from their down colors.
Here's some pretty typical cream examples. The pullet has a cream crest (not black).



These two feathered in gold.



Hope that was helpful. This is what I have learned from my flocks.

This was extremely helpful, I went and looked at my birds after reading this and found exactly what you were talking about, I was looking at my breeding stock not my young ones. I hate to help the competition. But if you could expound on this and put into it what you think we should be looking for in birds to keep for breeding or showing, and make an article it would be great.


You might even win the all expense paid trip to "wherever" it is BYC is sending the article contest winners this time....... I am still waiting on my first class tickets for 4 to Australia, I heard they may have gotten lost in the mail...



Seriously, with pictures with pictures this would helpful.....

 

[phoenix-silkie]

today a fox got my beautiful rooster

 

[duluthralphie]

today a fox got my beautiful rooster

Bummer. sorry to hear.

 

[duluthralphie]

I spent time watching my clb' s this evening.


White sports and all....I love my white sports!

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

today a fox got my beautiful rooster

I'm so so sorry!!!!! I live in fear of this - I have such a great rooster.

I spent time watching my clb' s this evening.


White sports and all....I love my white sports!

Thank you for sharing - I love these photos. Your birds look a lot like mine, similar hackle variations in the pullets, and that darker look in some that we have discussed (that I sort of like to see in my birds). I have to say, I have several breeds, and yet, it's still the CLs that I find most appealing to watch and look at in the yard. I never get tired of it.

I love your white sports!!!!!! (Makes me jealous. WANT SOME!)

- Ant Farm

 

[Bantambird]

Here is the dark cockerel growing out. His barring is well defined as predicted.