Cream Legbars

[duluthralphie]

Next time he wants to be held like that could you get a side picture of him, please. I would like to see the transition from his primaries/secondaries and rear. Thanks!

He is a dark little guy. But that could be age and photo. I have had a lot of chicks that color but I do not think I have a rooster with that dark of hackles.


BTW I spent about a half hour sitting with the Teenagers again. I really like the white sports the more I see them. They should be the SOP!

 

[daxigait]

Hi, I would like some critiques of my three CL boys and two pullets. Two are direct from GFF and are four and a half months old. The other and the two hens are from a March ninth hatch. One is destined for my CL pullets and leghorns, and the other will make green egg layers with a mixed group.














Thanks!

 

[PDPercherons]

At 23 & 26 weeks. Still no eggs . Aggh.

My favorite pullet.

I personally feel a lot of chicken owners are missing out by not having a flock of these guys.

 

[dretd]

Cream Legbars are a gold based bird (let's leave silver out of the discussion).

So if you can identify the gold and where it should be expressed, that is an important starting point.
In the males, the gold is found in the crest, the hackles, the saddle feathers and the wings (primary/secondaries).
Other "colors", i.e. "chestnut", may be found on some areas such as the crest, shoulders & back, but should be very limited.

In the females gold is concentrated in the crest and hackle feathers, although it also influences the body color.

When they are homozygous for cream, i.e. both parents have contributed a cream gene so the offspring is "double for cream", then those areas of the body which express gold will be diluted to cream. Cream is significantly lighter than gold. A pitcher of cream is a good visual. Whipping cream that has been developed into a very pale buttery color is another good visual. Please note that all of the gold is diluted, not just some areas.

Here's two hens with black crests that are sisters, the top hen is gold, the bottom hen is cream.
You may also be able to see the diffuse gold through the body of the top hen.



Here's two hens with gold/cream crests. The one on the left has a gold crest and gold hackles, the one on the right has a cream crest and cream hackles.
They are sisters, see parents below.




I have been able to project gold vs cream in my flocks from their down colors.
Here's some pretty typical cream examples. The pullet has a cream crest (not black).



These two feathered in gold.



Hope that was helpful. This is what I have learned from my flocks.

Sol2Go, Thanks for all of your very helpful photos!

I appreciate that you talking about Cream Legbars being gold based. It seems that we often are talking both genetics and phenotypes in the same sentence and the words we use when talking about one cannot be used with the other and if we don't preface what we are talking about people will talk apples and oranges all day and not be any closer to communicating about the fruit. I have seen English breeders say that the Cream Legbar is a gold-based bird and that is absolutely correct from a genetic standpoint. There are two possibilities--a bird is either gold or silver and the Cream Legbar is a breed that is gold based but is diluted by the gene called Inhibitor of Gold (ig/ig) which can dilute the feathers and make them appear as though they were genetically silver (in some cases). talking phenotypes, folks look at the diluted birds and say they look Silver which a genetic person will interpret as being the birds are diluted with the silver gene, when in reality the bird is diluted with two copies of ig/ig and looks 'silvery' to the eye. Same with gold and I have been guilty of this one myself--a bird that is not expressing cream I sometime will refer to as gold but in reality, genetically all of the Legbars we have are gold its just that some are not diluted with Cream--in these cases I am talking about their visual look but technically it can be confusing for a genetics expert. The Club should really think about developing a list of terms that we should encourage breeders to use so that there is more clarity and less cross-talk. Like I have been trying to use the phrase 'expressing gold' and 'expressing cream' when I am talking about the visual look of the birds to help avoid some of the confusion.

Anyway, I am in the same boat as you with regard to color in my flock. I have many that are obviously expressing cream (both dark and light crests in the females) and some that are very clearly expressing gold but I do have some in between ones of the females that I truly do not know what they are genetically. My thought is that if you cant easily sort them visually into a category (dilute or non-dilute with cream), or if they go between categories as the season goes on and they fade or become brassy in the boys, they probably on not ideal examples of either variety. Not that I would say to anyone that the bird is not a Cream Legbar, its more that they are not an ideal example of the breed or variety is all.

Looking at your down color in the chicks, it looks to my eye that you have the 'light phase' down that Punnett had referred to in one of his papers. In my original stock, I hatched 2 males who were light phase from one breeder and 3 females from 2 different breeders who were all dark phase. I hatch some of each down type and I am not sorting by down at this time other than to remove ones that are ambiguous. I personally have not been able to sort the chicks reliably on down color as to whether they will grow up to be expressing gold or expressing cream--especially the boys. I feel I can tell if they will end up expressing too much black and to a lesser extent too much chestnut by looking at the amount of charcoal and cinnamon in the down. Here is a photo of two girls--in retrospect the left one turned out to express gold, the right on turned out to express cream. If they were not side by side I would have a hard time telling which is which. You can see that they are both the darker chipmunk pattern. This is one example of how there can be confusion when breeders talk to one another, because what I am seeing in my flock is different than yours and yet they are both the 'right' answer.


Here is a photo of two sisters--one is expressing gold (right) and the other expressing cream (left) and they do look very much like your girls you posted. Both had the darker down phase. They both are very saturated with chestnut. Normally (undiluted) the excessive chestnut in the throat and crest would appear rusty like the one on the right, but in the case of the one that expresses cream on the left, it is partially diluted to a much paler color. Its helpful when I have closely related birds so that I know the other background genetics that might influence color are as close to the same as possible. For me it is very obvious that there is a gene that has been switched off and they on non-ambiguous as to how they will get sorted (dilute vs non-dilute). I wish they were all that easy, but some are in the middle and will require test breeding to sort their genetic state.


I appreciate your post very much and hope others have found it as helpful as I did.

 

[daxigait]

That was helpful, but I am new. Any advice on mine?

 

[Bantambird]

Hi, I would like some critiques of my three CL boys and two pullets. Two are direct from GFF and are four and a half months old. The other and the two hens are from a March ninth hatch. One is destined for my CL pullets and leghorns, and the other will make green egg layers with a mixed group. Thanks!

I like the tail angles on your males. The super light one has fuzzy barring and a crooked comb, but he has a beautiful crest. The boys expressing a bit more chestnut in the wings have much better barring, especially the tails. So far the ears look good. They have not finished filling out yet, so I would like to see when they widen their breast and fill in their combs and wattles. Your girls, you have both cream and gold expressing pullets. They are lovely, and I see you have a cream pullet with a bit of a melanized breast, which is alright. Beautiful!

 

[duluthralphie]

Hi, I would like some critiques of my three CL boys and two pullets. Two are direct from GFF and are four and a half months old. The other and the two hens are from a March ninth hatch. One is destined for my CL pullets and leghorns, and the other will make green egg layers with a mixed group.




I see them slightly different than Bantombird does. I see a good tail angle on the one on the left and a decent body length. The one on the right the angle is too sharp and the body too short. The flop of the comb on the left one may not be as bad as looks because of head movement, and remembering these are you and can mature a lot.



The one above has too high a tail angle, IMHO. Floppy comb, but nice crest. To me the barring looks good, but again a young bird and things change.


In this pose on this bird I like the tail angle. Again floppy comb, nice crest. Skirt looks too wide or deep or something IDK..... Overall a nice bird Just know I am trying to be picky.




One on right has way better barring than left..



With some more age this one will be a nice bird, needs to fill out and lengthen his body. Nice position of beak/mouth to chest./ breast. Barring could be clearer. Very nice tail angle. Feet and toes look good.





Thanks!

Nice looking hens. I really like the one on right 3 pictures up and alone 2nd picture up.


Then again what I say does not matter , cause I have no idea what I am talking about most the time...

 

[rottlady]

Here are my crew
This hen is 11 weeks old. Flash was not kind to her but her chest is very pale peachish. Like the same color as next hen faded out




This hen is 10 weeks old




and I need to take new pics of the boys but here are older pics I have posted previously
Rooster is 10 weeks but this was him at 8 weeks



and this little guy is now 5/6 weeks but this was him at 3 weeks



and these are my two new babies hatched a couple days ago

 

[daxigait]

I like the tail angles on your males. The super light one has fuzzy barring and a crooked comb, but he has a beautiful crest. The boys expressing a bit more chestnut in the wings have much better barring, especially the tails. So far the ears look good. They have not finished filling out yet, so I would like to see when they widen their breast and fill in their combs and wattles.
Your girls, you have both cream and gold expressing pullets. They are lovely, and I see you have a cream pullet with a bit of a melanized breast, which is alright. Beautiful!

[COLOR=FF0000]Nice looking hens. I really like the one on right 3 pictures up and  alone 2nd picture up.[/COLOR]


[COLOR=FF0000]Then again what  I say does not matter ,  cause I have no idea what I am talking about most the time...[/COLOR]

Thank you both. I have so much to learn. It helps to hear what others think. The hens or hens I don't remember has some black edging on the breast feathers. Is that desirable, and how much. I need to read the standards more.

 

[duluthralphie]

Thank you both. I have so much to learn. It helps to hear what others think. The hens or hens I don't remember has some black edging on the breast feathers. Is that desirable, and how much. I need to read the standards more.

I have been reading the proposed ones a lot, and I am never sure what I have and if it is right. Until they are used in judging and we see what the judges do with them, we will all just be taking educated or sometimes not so educated guessing...


Right now I am trying to find chicken steroids to get my scrawny birds up to 7 pounds!