Cross breeding for colours

[designbyaleks]

I'm looking for genetic wisdoms because despite many attempts I still don't feel confident with the quail calculator and I'm planning to start a new flock with a few birds that have shown awesome personalities.

I have tentatively set aside:
1 Silver male
1 Italian/pharaoh male
2 Pharaoh females
1 silver tuxedo female
1 Tibetan female
1 tibetan tux female
1 white female

I plan on mixing and matching these as needed in breeding cages in the future, while letting them cohabit for most of the year. I can 'top up' the coven with repeats of any of the above colours, as I pretty much have a few of everything, but want to pair it down quite a bit to just a few beautiful and sweet birds.

I was broadly wondering if this looks like a good mix that will give me all kinds of results including (and especially):
- pure italian colouring? I don't know what the colour is exactly on this one male but he's quite light compared to pharaohs generally, but not as light as the manchurian gold/italians I already have. His personality is so much better though, I feel like he's the keeper.
- pure tibetan colouring?
- pure silver colouring?

If anyone can tell me what I could expect, that would be awesome!

If (and I suspect this may be the case) these birds aren't going to produce true italian or gold, I intend on using my feisty mature male (standalone photo of him looking away) to fertilize some eggs in the next few weeks and see if I can get another italian-colour female to add to the brood.

Does anyone have any thoughts? Advice? Tips on who to breed with who for best results?

TIA!

 

[shrimpsilkies]

Your “pharaoh with Italian” on the bottom row there is a Falb Fee and cannot pass on any Italian color.
If you want pure Italian, crossing your Manchurian male to the two pharaoh hens will give you largely gold offspring, although they might be Manchurian, some may have speckles like the Italian.
Your “pure Tibetan” is a Rosetta, which is with one gene for Tibetan and one gene for Pharoah. Using the Falb Fee roo will get you 1/2 Fees (gray, no brown pigment) and 1/2 normals (brown pigment). 1/2 of the normals will be Pharaoh and 1/2 will be Rosetta. Crossing Rosetta to Rosetta will get you 1/4 Tibetan. The Tux is pure Tibetan but Tux can be hard to breed out if you want pure Tibetan.
I don’t know what any of the Golds (Manchurian, Italian) look like when crossed to Tibetan or Rosetta.

 

[designbyaleks]

Your “pharaoh with Italian” on the bottom row there is a Falb Fee and cannot pass on any Italian color.
If you want pure Italian, crossing your Manchurian male to the two pharaoh hens will give you largely gold offspring, although they might be Manchurian, some may have speckles like the Italian.
Your “pure Tibetan” is a Rosetta, which is with one gene for Tibetan and one gene for Pharoah. Using the Falb Fee roo will get you 1/2 Fees (gray, no brown pigment) and 1/2 normals (brown pigment). 1/2 of the normals will be Pharaoh and 1/2 will be Rosetta. Crossing Rosetta to Rosetta will get you 1/4 Tibetan. The Tux is pure Tibetan but Tux can be hard to breed out if you want pure Tibetan.
I don’t know what any of the Golds (Manchurian, Italian) look like when crossed to Tibetan or Rosetta.

YOU'RE THE BEST!!! Thank you! I thought Falb Fees were super rare - I wouldn't have thought we'd find one in our own coop It's the only one of 60 eggs we hatched out. Do you know what the silver roo would result in when mixed with the others? TIA!

 

[shrimpsilkies]

YOU'RE THE BEST!!! Thank you! I thought Falb Fees were super rare - I wouldn't have thought we'd find one in our own coop It's the only one of 60 eggs we hatched out. Do you know what the silver roo would result in when mixed with the others? TIA!

Falb Fees are just the Fee form of wildtype Pharaoh. Yours has a much more pronounced brown face mask, so it might not be a pure Fee, which are supposed to be pure gray with minimal brown. Whatever it is, it has the Pharaoh pattern.

This is my Falb Fee male.

The silver male has one copy of silver (Pharaoh base), so half his offspring will be silver and half will be normal if you pair him to a normal bird. Double silver is a solid pale white color, I suspect your English white is actually a double silver (whites typically have a spot of pigment on the head or back, although they can be pure white).

 

[Nabiki]

Falb Fees are just the Fee form of wildtype Pharaoh. Yours has a much more pronounced brown face mask, so it might not be a pure Fee, which are supposed to be pure gray with minimal brown. Whatever it is, it has the Pharaoh pattern. View attachment 2583413This is my Falb Fee male.

The silver male has one copy of silver (Pharaoh base), so half his offspring will be silver and half will be normal if you pair him to a normal bird. Double silver is a solid pale white color, I suspect your English white is actually a double silver (whites typically have a spot of pigment on the head or back, although they can be pure white).

That one has way too much red to be falb fee. Falb fee don't have any red at all in them.

 

[shrimpsilkies]

That one has way too much red to be falb fee. Falb fee don't have any red at all in them.
View attachment 2583481

Do you mean mine or the OP’s?
I remember you having posted images of Falb Fee roos, and that’s how I ID’d my male as a Falb Fee since he looks pretty much identical.

I do agree that the OP’s is an unusual color. The pharaoh pattern seems to be grayed out, I’m not sure what the to call it if not fee...

 

[Nabiki]

Do you mean mine or the OP’s?
I remember you having posted images of Falb Fee roos, and that’s how I ID’d my male as a Falb Fee since he looks pretty much identical.

I do agree that the OP’s is an unusual color. The pharaoh pattern seems to be grayed out, I’m not sure what the to call it if not fee...

Hmmm... Looking back at my pictures, I guess the roos did have a bit of rust in them. I haven't had a falb fee roo in a while!

 

[shrimpsilkies]

Hmmm... Looking back at my pictures, I guess the roos did have a bit of rust in them. I haven't had a falb fee roo in a while!
View attachment 2583664

Mine looks exactly like that! Only thing is, his father was Pharaoh, his mother was a strange dilute brown that I now think might be Roux (het) Fee seeing as how his sister is Roux. I wonder if a homozygous Falb Fee male might have less red.

 

[designbyaleks]

Hmmm... Looking back at my pictures, I guess the roos did have a bit of rust in them. I haven't had a falb fee roo in a while!
View attachment 2583664

ours definitely looks like this guy! My main unique identifier (and the reason I thought he was an Italian) was that the back 'stripes' are really dominant and they are light/almost white. his brown/gold/rust colour is really only around the face, and not at all in the back feathers (there is a general warming effect from the pine cladding inside the shed that's not really accurate as far as natural light). looking at Nabki's hens though, they look completely desaturated! Like someone photoshopped them into black and white! Our roo's colouring is not quite as distinct.

 

[FloorCandy]

Your “pharaoh with Italian” on the bottom row there is a Falb Fee and cannot pass on any Italian color.
If you want pure Italian, crossing your Manchurian male to the two pharaoh hens will give you largely gold offspring, although they might be Manchurian, some may have speckles like the Italian.
Your “pure Tibetan” is a Rosetta, which is with one gene for Tibetan and one gene for Pharoah. Using the Falb Fee roo will get you 1/2 Fees (gray, no brown pigment) and 1/2 normals (brown pigment). 1/2 of the normals will be Pharaoh and 1/2 will be Rosetta. Crossing Rosetta to Rosetta will get you 1/4 Tibetan. The Tux is pure Tibetan but Tux can be hard to breed out if you want pure Tibetan.
I don’t know what any of the Golds (Manchurian, Italian) look like when crossed to Tibetan or Rosetta.

Here’s a photo of a group of birds from a snowie manchurian x range pattern hens. The colors are different from what you’ll get with a golden manchurian, but it’s a nice range of the patterns. My favorite is the dark base color with light speckles 2nd from the back, like a reverse Italian lol.

you’ll also get regular to heavily speckled Italians.