Crossbreeding dual purpose breeds for sustainable flock

[HomesteadNowhere]

I'm considering going with freedom rangers instead of bresse. They're half the price, look like about the same goal as what I want, and the breeder hatchery is closer to me.

 

[aliciaplus3]

I'm considering going with freedom rangers instead of bresse. They're half the price, look like about the same goal as what I want, and the breeder hatchery is closer to me.

Freedom ranger hatchery is far enough away they refuse to ship to me, thats why mine are red ranger type.... lol there are several threads here about using them

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

Idea 4:
2021- get and grow chicks

2022-
Freedom rangers
BO hens x FR roo
SLW hens x FR roo
SS hens x FR roo
Hatch F1s for each group. F1s take place in breeding pens. Original hens and FRs become laying flock.

2023-
BO1 x BO1
SLW1 x SLW1
SS1 x SS1
Hatch F2s for each group.
Decide best ones to line cross. Hatch line cross each group.

I think from here I'll see which ones are doing the best and if a certain cross is not working well at all. Decide if I can cut a line to make space.
I'm also wondering about back crossing. With the FRs being low layers it seems like it will really be a toss up of usefulness. Perhaps the line bred hens bred to the FR roos would be the best for terminal use? Do that for hatching a bunch of freezer bound chicks.

I've also been thinking about breeding strategies. One of the production sheep breeds is the polypay, a composite breed. Made up of Finn, Rambouillet, Dorset, Targhee. You breed two together, and the other two together. Then you breed those offspring together. Giving you sheep that are 1/4 of each breed and bringing together alot of the top traits you want into one.
I was wondering about something like that.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

I didn't specifically read it but believe as of yet you don't have any birds. This is of great advantage to you. Take your time and get the BEST stock you can obtain/afford. Your posts seem to me that you are selecting breeds based on descriptions yet are planning to obtain hatchery stock that will in no way come close to the meat quality of dual purpose birds you ordered.

I can't stress it enough, if you want to attempt a true dual purpose flock start with BREEDER stock not hatchery birds. I get using hatchery rangers or rainbow or red and black broilers in a breeding program but if you are obtaining dual purpose birds they should be from an actual dual purpose breeder flock. The difference is night and day in regards to maturity rate, fleshing, size, body structure. It's hard to see the "breed" in what hatcheries state they are selling.

Simply obtaining quality dual purpose stock of one breed and continuing that with a goal of improved meat quality would be a better course of action. One, you're obtaining and continuing an actual heritage breed. Many of which are nearing endangerment. Buckeye and New Hampshire are two excellent choices for a sustained heritage dual purpose flock to secure, continue and improve. Delaware is another good choice.

There is much to hybrid vigor. In that F1 crosses usually are larger than both parent stock and mature faster. The downside to this is it's a constant of crossing every year.

If one does not have any desire to maintain a breed of bird then why even purchase one? If heinz 57 birds are the goal then simply start with them. Purchase hybrids and breed them with the goal of creating a dual purpose sustainable strain. One could only procure Rainbow birds and selectively breed them with that goal in mind. Or any of the slow grow broilers. Or a combination of all slower grow hybrids with meat qualities and choose the best preforming birds from that initial purchase to start selectively breeding towards the goal of creating a sustainable strain of dual purpose flock.

Just some thoughts and questioning why anyone with meat quality flock in mind would ever start with hatchery "breeds". I use quotations whenever speaking of hatchery stock and what they sell to resemble actual breeds. They are egg layers and not suited for this type of program. It will set you back years or stymie the entire program from the start. Start with the best you can obtain and if that's hybrids then only use hybrids to selectively breed to your goal. Hatchery "breeds" would be counter productive in my opinion.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

Here is a good article about how to select birds for meat quality. The fundamentals herein can be used with either improvement of a breed or in creating a strain.

https://livestockconservancy.org/images/uploads/docs/ALBCchicken_assessment-1.pdf

another on ongoing selection criteria-

https://livestockconservancy.org/images/uploads/docs/ALBCchicken_assessment-3.pdf

 

[aliciaplus3]

I didn't specifically read it but believe as of yet you don't have any birds. This is of great advantage to you. Take your time and get the BEST stock you can obtain/afford. Your posts seem to me that you are selecting breeds based on descriptions yet are planning to obtain hatchery stock that will in no way come close to the meat quality of dual purpose birds you ordered.

I can't stress it enough, if you want to attempt a true dual purpose flock start with BREEDER stock not hatchery birds. I get using hatchery rangers or rainbow or red and black broilers in a breeding program but if you are obtaining dual purpose birds they should be from an actual dual purpose breeder flock. The difference is night and day in regards to maturity rate, fleshing, size, body structure. It's hard to see the "breed" in what hatcheries state they are selling.

Simply obtaining quality dual purpose stock of one breed and continuing that with a goal of improved meat quality would be a better course of action. One, you're obtaining and continuing an actual heritage breed. Many of which are nearing endangerment. Buckeye and New Hampshire are two excellent choices for a sustained heritage dual purpose flock to secure, continue and improve. Delaware is another good choice.

There is much to hybrid vigor. In that F1 crosses usually are larger than both parent stock and mature faster. The downside to this is it's a constant of crossing every year.

If one does not have any desire to maintain a breed of bird then why even purchase one? If heinz 57 birds are the goal then simply start with them. Purchase hybrids and breed them with the goal of creating a dual purpose sustainable strain. One could only procure Rainbow birds and selectively breed them with that goal in mind. Or any of the slow grow broilers. Or a combination of all slower grow hybrids with meat qualities and choose the best preforming birds from that initial purchase to start selectively breeding towards the goal of creating a sustainable strain of dual purpose flock.

Just some thoughts and questioning why anyone with meat quality flock in mind would ever start with hatchery "breeds". I use quotations whenever speaking of hatchery stock and what they sell to resemble actual breeds. They are egg layers and not suited for this type of program. It will set you back years or stymie the entire program from the start. Start with the best you can obtain and if that's hybrids then only use hybrids to selectively breed to your goal. Hatchery "breeds" would be counter productive in my opinion.

While you have several valid points, in remote areas where there are very few if any true breeders hatchery birds are what is available. Not every hatchery offers the same stain of a given breed. Example, I have gotten some light brahmas from cackle hatchery that are actually Big birds that Look like Real brahmas, whereas tge ones from privet are much smaller.... now the cuckoo marans i got from privet were not bad. All hatcheries are not created equal.

I agree starting with the slow growing meat crosses already out there would be a good thing for a meat project, that's why there are several red broiler hens in one of my breeding pens covered by the biggest roosters I can find that are more heritage. You lose egg numbers but they can reproduce and you get big cockerels to butcher at an earlier age.

If you are going to breed to the American poultry association standard of perfection the pick a breed and get the best you can get/afford then get a copy of the standard and move forward in that direction. If just a standard Heineken 57 meat mutt is your fancy then start mixing and the sky is the limit!

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

I'm back to page 30 on the meat birds section. I've been trying to understand more about hatchery = yeah they are chickens but... Rather than hatchery chicks = actually what to expect from that breed. It seems like hatcheries just mass produce so these chicks are technically from the same genes as the breed but they haven't been kept up. They've only been mass produced, rinse, repeat. Not kept to a standard really.

Yes, I don't have any chickens right now. We have alot of raccoons and predators so this had to wait until I have an actual predator proof place for them. And why I'm doing so much idea masticating now.
I am going to have to buy hatchery chicks in starting. I'm pretty rural. However there is alot of animal "have-ers" than actual breeders. There is lots of animals around but I would not want to bring in animals from most of them. I'm reaching out to my friends who have or have had animals to see if there is any serious breeders in the area.

Given these new aspects I'm thinking it would be best to do assorted chicks. Mcmurray has all heavy roos- " Our choice of varieties, but we guarantee at least 5 different ones from this list: Black Australorps; Lt. Brahmas; Dark Cornish; Black and White Giants; Buff and White Orpingtons; New Hampshire, Rhode Island Reds, Barred, White, Partridge, Buff Rocks; Sussex, Turkens; White, Silver Laced, & Columbian Wyandottes, Red Star and Black Star."
And brown egg layers- " Our choice of varieties, but we guarantee at least 5 different ones (3 in an order of 15 or less) which may include: Black Australorps; Lt. Brahmas; Dark Cornish; Black and White Giants; Buff and White Orpingtons; New Hampshire, Rhode Island Reds, Barred, White, Partridge, Buff Rocks; Delaware, Sussex, Turkens; White, Silver Laced, & Columbian Wyandottes, Red Star and Black Star."

This would be cheaper, getting an assortment and sexed chicks. This would also give me a bunch to start and the best ones would stay, the rest would be culled for the freezer. And hopefully picking up some nice chickens locally to add to the mix.
I will probably do some Freedom Rangers along with that. For comparison as well as maybe keeping some of those roos in case I'm not that impressed with many from the assortment. With the FRs I at least have an idea of their production expectation. I've been reading through the threads mentioning them especially. One of the last ones I read was someone who kept 5 FR hens as layers which went well for a while but the hens were pretty much done at a year old and realized problems with internal fat and some yolk impaction. So I think it's still worth trying but watching for those things.

 

[Kusanar]

A suggestion, and it would require maybe more pens than you would like so may not be something you are interested in. If you have hens from breeds that lay different color eggs, you could put 1 hen of each egg color in a pen together with a rooster, then you would know exactly who laid which egg and could track genetics easier that way. You could also rotate roosters through the pens (with sufficient hold times) so that you can get eggs from each cross to hatch. Then you could hatch lets say 10 eggs from each specific cross and keep the best male and best 2 females from each individual cross (as the first cut anyway) which would keep you from having issues of reducing genetics too fast.

Then, once you have all of them hatched, you could look at your roosters stats and how they measure up, rank them, choose the best bird out of the batch, you keep him, then if the 2nd bird has extremely similar genetics, discard him and take bird #3 as a keeper, that way you get a wide variety of genetics but you keep the best out of each type and will end up discarding the worst genetics entirely.

Then pair the roosters you keep with the hens that you keep that are of different genetic makeup.

I can try to chart this out if it would be easier to understand.

 

[NatJ]

Given these new aspects I'm thinking it would be best to do assorted chicks....
This would be cheaper, getting an assortment and sexed chicks. This would also give me a bunch to start and the best ones would stay, the rest would be culled for the freezer.

That idea makes sense, but do check how much it would cost to order sexed males of the breeds you are most interested in--sometimes the price is pretty close, and you can have exactly what you want.

I agree that trying out a bunch of different ones is a great idea, because you can learn so much by seeing them yourself instead of just reading descriptions on the internet (and you will also learn the traits of the actual strain available from that hatchery, which may not match what is "right" for the breed. Whether it's better or worse depends on how it aligns with your personal goals.)

Hatchery birds may not be as good for meat as dual-purpose ones from a breeder, but the hatchery birds might lay better, which is also a useful quality.

 

[Geena]

Just about any hatchery dual purpose breed crossed with any colored broiler is going to give you a pretty meaty bird that lays a fair amount of eggs. In my experience, despite the various descriptions, most of the hatchery DP breeds are actually very much alike, they mostly just have different colored feathers and skin.
I would just pick a breed that appeals to you, because it's nice to have chickens that you like to look at, even if you are going to eventually eat them.
The real thinking, choosing and breeding plans will come together thereafter, once you have your F1s on the ground and decide which way you want to go with them.