Crossbreeding dual purpose breeds for sustainable flock

[Egghead_Jr]

I'm back to page 30 on the meat birds section. I've been trying to understand more about hatchery = yeah they are chickens but... Rather than hatchery chicks = actually what to expect from that breed. It seems like hatcheries just mass produce so these chicks are technically from the same genes as the breed but they haven't been kept up. They've only been mass produced, rinse, repeat. Not kept to a standard really.

Hatchery birds are bred for egg production. You can not be guaranteed they are even pure lineage. When a "breed" that should have red ear lobes has white and red ears with a body that looks more like a Leghorn you start to suspect Leghorn was in it's lineage yet it's buff and looks somewhat Orpington as it's sold as. Hatcheries provide a service and people are very happy with the increased egg production. So you get a variety of different looking birds but they are not bred to their breed standard. They are bred with eggs in mind to fulfill the publics want.

Breeder stock are bred to the Standard of Perfection. Body type, i.e.- width of back and tail, breast development, standard weight and so forth that the Standard states is for that breed lends to the characteristic of the breed. If a dual purpose bird the wide back and tail is a physical trait that reduces egg laying capacity yet promotes fleshing. Note that breeds known for high egg production do not have the body type of dual purpose birds. Typically a narrow body with pinched tails.

Breeders do sell and ship chicks. It would be no different than ordering from a hatchery other than the price is more and if you did your homework on the stock being offered it will be of good quality. Bred to the standard. It's an upfront cost addage and for those that want a particular breed to maintain and work to the Standard of Perfection for that breed.

 

[Geena]

Hatchery birds are bred for egg production. You can not be guaranteed they are even pure lineage. When a "breed" that should have red ear lobes has white and red ears with a body that looks more like a Leghorn you start to suspect Leghorn was in it's lineage yet it's buff and looks somewhat Orpington as it's sold as. Hatcheries provide a service and people are very happy with the increased egg production. So you get a variety of different looking birds but they are not bred to their breed standard. They are bred with eggs in mind to fulfill the publics want.

Breeder stock are bred to the Standard of Perfection. Body type, i.e.- width of back and tail, breast development, standard weight and so forth that the Standard states is for that breed lends to the characteristic of the breed. If a dual purpose bird the wide back and tail is a physical trait that reduces egg laying capacity yet promotes fleshing. Note that breeds known for high egg production do not have the body type of dual purpose birds. Typically a narrow body with pinched tails.

Breeders do sell and ship chicks. It would be no different than ordering from a hatchery other than the price is more and if you did your homework on the stock being offered it will be of good quality. Bred to the standard. It's an upfront cost addage and for those that want a particular breed to maintain and work to the Standard of Perfection for that breed.

I totally agree with this. I've ordered multiple different dual purpose breeds and they are all basically the same, much smaller than advertised, but good egg layers. You will get some individuals that come closer to the standard and you could select those to move forward with. But it wasn't until I started buying breeder birds that I got chickens that actually fit the standard description.

IMO if you are going to try to cross DP breeds I would start out with breeder birds, you'll be way ahead of the game that way.
If you are going to cross DP with colored broilers it really doesn't matter all that much which you choose, since there's hardly any difference between one hatchery DP or another, and one colored broiler or another.

 

[Molpet]

https://projects.sare.org/project-reports/fnc12-866/
A guy did a study on a few hatchery breeds

 

[aliciaplus3]

most folks that have chickens started out where you are now, reading through all the possibilities and dreaming of what could be. Most folks I know now keep a different breed than they originally thought they would want.
I personally started out with just a few egg layers in mind... never dreaming of hatching or raising meat birds. now here I am and this past summer we raised and butchered 300? cornish cross and 50-80 mutt cockerels?? I still have my egg flocks that I love for their egg numbers and color feathers but my meat projects are some of my favorite birds!
I thought for several years that the most eggs I could get would be the way to go, now that I have been at this for 10plus years I realize that its a balance of egg numbers and meat qualities that makes me happy. we are high enough in elevation here that cornish cross while being the best feed to meat conversion out there, are only available from the hatchery and are terminal here at 6000 feet. leghorn and leghorn like birds will defiantly give the best feed to egg conversion but the cockerels only dress out around 2 to 2.5 pounds and not with the same proportions that supermarket chicken offers so many folks here are not much interested in buying them to eat.
this is why that "ideal" mutt becomes appealing. the most and earliest meat qualities without loosing too much on egg numbers or egg size...
ok lets look at a heritage cornish they have great breast meat proportions but take 9 months to get there and then lay a smaller number of smaller eggs....yup we tried those for a while. How about light brahmas? yup medium egg size and 180ish a year for a BIG bird that requires quite a bit of feed and takes 7-9 months to get there.... oh my

I guess the biggest jump is starting, after your first batch of chicks you will start to get an idea of what is working for you and If you are like lots of us your goals will change as you go.

good luck with all your poultry endeavers.... oh and don't forget there are other options for poultry meat.... turkey , duck , goose, quail
ok we are dabbling in all of those right now and having fun.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It seems like hatcheries just mass produce so these chicks are technically from the same genes as the breed but they haven't been kept up. They've only been mass produced, rinse, repeat. Not kept to a standard really.

Each hatchery is different. They all have their own people selecting which birds get to breed so each hatchery has it's own strain. Some of these hatchery flocks are decades old, those differences in strain can be noticeable.

Most of the hatcheries we buy from use the pen breeding method. This is where they may have 20 roosters in a pen with 200 hens where the mating is random. You are not going to breed a grand champion show chicken this way. Breeders breeding for show (or other specific traits) typically put one specific rooster with two or three specific hens to assure the best mate with the best. Even then most of the chicks they hatch aren't good enough to show. You cannot expect those results with random breeding even if the person that selects which chickens get to breed use the Standard Of Perfection (SOP) as a guide. The standard is there to a point, depending in the skill, desires, and knowledge of the person selecting the breeding stock. but their goal is to mass produce representative chicks at a competitive price. Quality breeders are not usually into the competitive price thing.

Hatchery birds do tend to lay fairy well for the breed even if the breeder doesn't specifically target that. The more eggs a hen lays the more of the hatched chicks are hers so more are likely to end up being breeders. Many of these hatchery flocks are decades old, so over time that makes a difference. Breeders should target egg lying anyway. The more eggs a dual purpose hen lays the more eggs they have to hatch and most of their buyers are after hens that lay eggs. Hatcheries pretty much quit breeding for meat qualities back in the 1950's and 1960's when the Cornish X took over meat production.

I totally agree the better quality stock you start with the easier it is. What is your criteria to determine quality? How important is size? There are only two of us and I can get two meals out of a pullet. Don't get me wrong, I like a nicely sized cockerel. I'm not selling them so for me and my goals size is not an overriding concern. I select my breeders for size but early maturity is more important. They grow bigger faster. We all have our own goals.

I'm not bashing breeders at all. They deserve the prices they charge with all the work and expenses they put into it. If you can find a breeder that knows what they are doing and are breeding to your goals that would be fabulous and worth the price. It doesn't have to be a breed, it could be a backyard mix. I don't know how to find one of those so I play with my own.

Given these new aspects I'm thinking it would be best to do assorted chicks.

I often suggest that route, either getting an assortment or selecting sexed chicks of the breeds you want. About half the chicks they hatch are boys but the demand is for girls so they have a lot of boys left over. In the assortments they pick whatever they have so it is luck on what breeds you get. You might look at the pricing structure to see what the total shipping costs will be either way and make your decision. Some hatcheries charge extra if they are not all the same breed or may have other charges.

You are going to go through a learning curve no matter how much you read and plan. Nothing ever works out the way you think it will. Starting that curve with relatively inexpensive hatchery chicks might not be a bad thing. Raising some Cornish X or Rangers with them will give you a baseline. To me an advantage in raising different breeds from a specific strain side by side gives you a good comparison on how they perform in your conditions.

Good luck with it. There are so many different ways you can go.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

You are going to go through a learning curve no matter how much you read and plan.

Nothing ever works out the way you think it will. Starting that curve with relatively inexpensive hatchery chicks might not be a bad thing. Raising some Cornish X or Rangers with them will give you a baseline. To me an advantage in raising different breeds from a specific strain side by side gives you a good comparison on how they perform in your conditions.

Good luck with it. There are so many different ways you can go.

'Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock.' Bene Gesserit saying (Frank Herbert, one of the Dune novels, "Chapterhouse" maybe?) It may be a science fiction novel, but I've found this to be true.

@Ridgerunner offers great advice and credible prognostication. All of us who have started down this path, or are contemplating it now, have met setbacks (some our own mistakes, others beyond our control - even before accounting for the genetic lottery) and hopefully learned from them. Good luck in your efforts! At least we aren't trying to breed a Chicken Kwisatz Haderach!

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Honestly I don't see what the point of cross-breeding would be unless you just don't like white Bresse.

 

[Egghead_Jr]

I don't think Bresse are all that and a bag of chips. There are better dual purpose.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

I don't think Bresse are all that and a bag of chips. There are better dual purpose.

Not for a couple bucks a pop from a hatchery.

 

[aliciaplus3]

One thing about poultry is not everyone has the same goals... one person may want more and bigger eggs while another doesn't eat eggs and is only interested in meat.... one persons ideas of a good balance may be 100 eggs a year and a 12 pound bird at a year while another wants 280 eggs a year and is good with a 4 pound bird at 6 months.... just saying there is no right answer for everyone