Crossbreeding dual purpose breeds for sustainable flock

[RiverOtter]

Ok, I'm seeing lots of bashing on hatchery birds and lots of cheering for breeders, but let me just throw this out there;
The breeder birds will be bigger, for sure, but when? The thing I've found is that show stock takes FOREVER to mature.

I am not feeding meat birds forever! I Do Not Care how large and lovely a bird is at a year+. I am not feeding a roo for more than 16 weeks! Some show lines, you can't even reliably sex them at that age. And eggs, uhg, 8 months for an egg, and that's if you get chicks in early spring. Get chicks in summer and you aren't seeing an egg until next April.

Hatchery birds at least grow up. Your rooster won't mature as big as a breeder bird, but he'll at least be more than a scrawny, bony frame at 16 weeks. Your hens won't be as big or pretty, but you'll have eggs between 20 and 24 weeks.

The other thing to know is that neither show nor hatchery lines of "dual purpose" birds are bred for meatiness. I'm not saying there isn't the rare breeder out there that selects hard and strictly for a good carcass in a short time frame, but I'm also not saying Atlantis doesn't exist - good luck finding either.

So go forth and breed your happy mutts! Select birds that you think will be easy on the eyes and choose your breeders HARD at 12, 16 and 20 weeks. You want to sex them by 12 at the latest, pick the fattest roosters at 16, the best of the pullets at 20 and cull any girls that aren't laying soon after.

If it helps, I've found that some Leghorn or Game blood in the mix throws you faster maturing birds with a far, far higher percentage of breast meat. "Flighty" breeds will naturally want more flight muscle - that's breast. More docile breeds spend more time scratching, and that's all legs and thighs.

 

[Kusanar]

If it helps, I've found that some Leghorn or Game blood in the mix throws you faster maturing birds with a far, far higher percentage of breast meat. "Flighty" breeds will naturally want more flight muscle - that's breast. More docile breeds spend more time scratching, and that's all legs and thighs.

Huh, that makes sense, I wonder if that's where the Cornish Cross came from, Pure Cornish to me look pretty gamey so maybe they are the ones that brought a lot of the breast meat into the cross.

 

[aliciaplus3]

If I remember correctly< I know i am stealing this from somewhere here> someone said start where you are with what you have....
if you have access to hatchery birds then that's where you start

you have received much advice... don't be too discouraged.

now my 2 cents anyway.

for a meat cross keep an eye on how long the birds you select take to mature. the Dark cornish I got took 9 months and laid VERY few eggs... they are beautiful do not get me wrong but not conducive to keeping in my flock( they did reliably go broody probably part of the issue with egg numbers broody too much)

most hatchery brahma I have gotten ahold of are smaller than my rode island reds, the birds from cackle did get much bigger but still took 9-10 months....

I do not have enough experience with orpingtons or Sussex to give thoughts...

We have been selectively breeding Necked necks for 4? years and have some big ones... still working on how fast they mature but nice birds....

once you start your ideals will shift as your project matures... its ok
just start.

 

[NatJ]

Huh, that makes sense, I wonder if that's where the Cornish Cross came from, Pure Cornish to me look pretty gamey so maybe they are the ones that brought a lot of the breast meat into the cross.

Cornish cross started as a cross of Cornish rooster with White Plymouth Rock hen.

That way people were collecting the eggs from the White Rock (better layer than Cornish), and the chicks got hybrid vigor plus big breast (Cornish) plus fast early growth (Rock).

Of course, by now, "Cornish Cross" are a hybrid of specially-bred lines that don't have much in common with pure Cornish or pure Plymouth Rocks. But they did start as a simple hybrid of breeds that existed at the time.

 

[Geena]

The hatchery Orpingtons and Rocks that I've raised dressed out at around 2 - 2.5lbs for pullets and 3-3.5lbs for cockerels at 16 weeks. Very few of them ever even came close to reaching the standard weights advertised by the hatcheries. Also, in my experience, the hatchery dual purpose breeds are hardly ever reliable broodies.

I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but several hatcheries now have some broiler type dual purpose breeds available. If I was to start all over again I might go that route as most of the work has already been done. Order 50-100 of them, pick out the best to move forward with and put the rest in the freezer. You may want to look into those as well.

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

Chicks are ordered. 25 freedom rangers, 25 brown layers, 25 heavy roos. We'll see how it goes. I opted for shipping date end of March. I should be done lambing then. It'll put them in the brooder at least through April. Then May see what the weather's decided to do, it's often plenty warm. (Knock on wood! Don't go jinxing myself.)

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

Well I had a big post and my phone is being stupid so it ate it... try again...

I'm aware this isn't the most optimal way to start this project. If it had to be then I wouldn't get to it for several years and I'd likely not do it at all then. So you'll have to suffer through with me lol.

I've already considered that I may not be that happy with the assorted roos, growth rate and how filled out they are. One idea is to just choose the best two anyways. One I have a bunch of chicks I'll retain the best FR offspring roos to replace them and work from there.

I plan to buy an incubator (or two) and am asking around about sourcing hatching eggs later on. Mainly my friend with the icelandics. Only other people I know of locally do banties and silkies. Not what I'm after. I have a friend with a mixed layer flock and if I can check them out sometime I may get hatching eggs from her.

I'm planning on building a chickshaw. I'm working on an idea with a small trailer. If it works out I could have the layers in it and the FR in the chickshaw. Rotate the roos I want between the two flocks.
The new shed isn't built yet and I'll probably be running the chickens in it in the winter. So I'll either have to build a couple small breeding pens or just hatch eggs from the whole lot.
Ohhhhhh what if I convert the current sheep shed into chicken winter pens??? Ohhhhh... Since the sheep will be in the new shed... Ohhhh I'll have to think more on that...

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

If they start laying right at 20wks that puts me at mid August. Giving them a couple weeks to settle into normal eggs... That puts me hatching in the fall. Hm... depending on the growth of the FRs I may just start hatching only their eggs. If they're eating and acting like normal chickens I may wait. If they need restricted feed and are waddling sumo looking then I'll be hatching from them as soon as possible to maximize the offspring before they croak.

Ideally I'm thinking I don't want to hatch before March. And probably not hatch after August. If it's good weather they can transfer outside faster.
If I start setting in Feb and my last hatch is Aug 10, back to back hatching... that's 8 hatches. With one incubator that's 41x8 is 328 eggs set. Two incubators would be 656 eggs set. I'll call that plenty. 30% loss puts it at 230 or 460 chicks.
With 25 layers and 5 FR hens it'll only take a couple days to fill.
With the lower laying rate the FRs could potentially earn themselves a special later hatch just their eggs. That's another to be determined thing.

 

[Timmy59]

The hatchery Orpingtons and Rocks that I've raised dressed out at around 2 - 2.5lbs for pullets and 3-3.5lbs for cockerels at 16 weeks. Very few of them ever even came close to reaching the standard weights advertised by the hatcheries. Also, in my experience, the hatchery dual purpose breeds are hardly ever reliable broodies.

I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but several hatcheries now have some broiler type dual purpose breeds available. If I was to start all over again I might go that route as most of the work has already been done. Order 50-100 of them, pick out the best to move forward with and put the rest in the freezer. You may want to look into those as well.

There you have it.. Well said and 2 thumbs up..

 

[Timmy59]

If they start laying right at 20wks that puts me at mid August. Giving them a couple weeks to settle into normal eggs... That puts me hatching in the fall. Hm... depending on the growth of the FRs I may just start hatching only their eggs. If they're eating and acting like normal chickens I may wait. If they need restricted feed and are waddling sumo looking then I'll be hatching from them as soon as possible to maximize the offspring before they croak.

Ideally I'm thinking I don't want to hatch before March. And probably not hatch after August. If it's good weather they can transfer outside faster.
If I start setting in Feb and my last hatch is Aug 10, back to back hatching... that's 8 hatches. With one incubator that's 41x8 is 328 eggs set. Two incubators would be 656 eggs set. I'll call that plenty. 30% loss puts it at 230 or 460 chicks.
With 25 layers and 5 FR hens it'll only take a couple days to fill.
With the lower laying rate the FRs could potentially earn themselves a special later hatch just their eggs. That's another to be determined thing.

I run 2 small flocks and happy with both, the layer flock Meyer Plymoth white rocks and then a Welp slow grow broiler, which we got of 1st egg today 3 days short of 5 months.. 1 broiler roo weighed 10 lbs 3 oz a couple weeks ago..