Crossbreeding dual purpose breeds for sustainable flock

[U_Stormcrow]

^^^ that is why I have kept an eye to preserving the very early to moderately early to lay characteristics in my culling program - so as to advance thru generations more rapidly. If your Wyans are like mine, they are pretty middle of the pack - around 26 weeks, and well before your Brahma get around to leaving presents you want to eat.

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

8/24 first egg
9/1, egg
9/2, egg
9/3, two eggs
9/4, egg
9/5, three
9/6, three
9/7, seven eggs

The first two to be cracked were both double yolk. Most of the eggs have been light brown and a few have been very pale cream.

 

[Solanacae]

Following. This is a fascinating thread.

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

I've been getting usually 7 eggs a day, with a few days of 3 or 4 eggs. A few have been real big, mostly longer they kind of look badly photoshopped lol. I'm worried the FR pullets are all double yolk. Right now I'm just guessing that the giant eggs are theirs. I hope to build a pen for just them so I can see. I need to look at trap nest designs again. I don't know if I could make one work in the chickshaw...

I'm getting to the point that I understand the genetics enough to start playing with the calculator online. It seems like breeding Pretty Boy (bielefelder) to red hens makes red barred. Breeding those offspring back to him should get me to the "black patterned gold duckwing barred" like bielefelders are and I can select for growth, etc.

Also interesting it looks like if I do the same with buff hens I would get buff barred. Bred back to him should give "black patterned yellow/cream duckwing barred". Then I could get more of the same plus, black patterned yellow/cream wheaton barred, and black patterned gold wheaton barred. The little colored chicken on the calculator looked interesting.

I'm not sure how to find pictures of what actual chickens of the colors look like?

 

[NatJ]

I'm getting to the point that I understand the genetics enough to start playing with the calculator online.....I'm not sure how to find pictures of what actual chickens of the colors look like?

I think you're right about the genetics.
For pictures, I don't know where to find exactly what you want.

Sometimes you can find pictures of various crosses on this site by poking around in old threads.
For example, this one has some buff birds with white barring:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/buff-orpington-x-barred-rock-results-pics.229407/page-6

And feathersite has many photos of different breeds, in various varieties, and they usually have nice labels on them. So you may be able to find some breed that comes in the color you want to see. https://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/BRKChickensA-C.html

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Sad to say the calculator would be more useful to me if it had pictures, not crude crayon representations of pattern - and my efforts to find a better source have also come to naught.

Feathersite I found instructive, and useful, but still not "it" for me. Though it obviously works for others. @NatJ has directed you to the best online free sources that I am aware of.

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

FR x10
brahma buff columbian x6
brahma buff pencilled x2
NH x1
buff orp x5
partridge rock x1
white x1
columbian x?

One of the buffs turned into a cockerel. The columbians are confusing, there are three but they each look a bit different. One has a bum leg and I'm probably feeding it to the pig, I gave it more time to get over it but it's the same. One looks alright but it's got weirdly long legs, like a bad photoshop job. And the other has less of the dark markings. Both their tails are a bit beat up but I have not seen either of them topping anyone nor under anyone. Will columbians have the green sheen in the tail if they're cockerels?

The FR seem to be red, brown, and one that's between a light brown and a dark buff. Dunno.

That leaves me about 26 pullets and the two cockerels to stay. I'll be glad to see the rest of the males go. Less feed and less shenanigans.

 

[NatJ]

Will columbians have the green sheen in the tail if they're cockerels?

Either gender can have a green sheen on black, so it's not helpful if you're trying to determine gender.

If you know they are cockerels, and are just wondering whether they will get a green sheen in their tails, then probably yes.

 

[CNJ]

I know this is a popular idea so here goes another thread. I'm reading up on the previous threads but nothing so far has been quite what I have in mind. I have raised chickens before but I've never done my own breeding so this will be new to me. I have alot of questions and along the way I'll probably be posting pics of the chickens for more opinions on choosing the best birds for my goals. To help me get used to developing the 'breeders eye' for chickens.

I'm building a hoop style building. I plan to raise the chickens on deep bedding here. In the future I plan to build a ChickShaw and rotate along with my other animals. For now though I have to limit them to the building, I have several projects going so putting money to each as it goes.

I want to breed Bresse to several dual purpose breeds and select the ones that do best. It's not a precise set of standards yet. This is definitely one of the things I'd appreciate feedback on. Other than obviously health issue or deformities I need to define the standards for culling. I want a flock of dual purpose chickens that lay well enough and the offspring are meaty enough to bother with, preferably in the about 12-16 wk time of the bresse breed. I haven't raised my own meat birds and I'm not set on butchering alot in one go vs butchering as needed. The chickens we had growing up we would do a bunch in a day, culling the hens out and seeing how many replacement chicks to get.

I've been reading about the breeds and these seemed like the best options for dual purpose for my goals, while also being attractive to look at. I also would rather keep the option of broody hens and foraging instincts, getting a few more eggs isn't worth losing brains. If anyone has crossed Bresse to other dual purpose breed before I'd be very interested to hear about it.

Bresse- 4-7#, cream eggs. Buy straight run. Choose best two roosters, eat the rest. Any hens will produce full Bresse chicks to compare the crosses to. 16wk maturity.
Buff Orpington- 8-10#, brown eggs. Buy F chicks. 20wk maturity.
Silver Lace Wyandotte- 6.5-8.5#, brown eggs. Buy F chicks. 20wk maturity.
Speckle Sussex- 7-9#, brown eggs. Buy F chicks, but more as straight run, roosters finish for meat. These are the cheaper ones so seem the better option to buy SR, and admittedly they are really pretty so I can't say I won't maybe keep one roo just to see lol. 20wk maturity.

1) I don't understand color and pattern genetics for chickens so I'm not sure what the offspring will look like.

2) For space and ease of chores etc. I was thinking to just have the hens and the keeper best 2 roosters run together. Just hatch from the full group of eggs. I am going to do more reading on small breeding groups. In a big group I'll be keeping back only the top best, so it may end up an even mix of chicks from all three hen breeds, or it may skew to mostly one hen breed that was the best cross. I see the merits of both. The group hatch will have the widest gene pool. But small known breeding groups will be able to tell me if one hen breed cross is much better than the others.

3) I have done some hatching before but not to any scale. Doing this I would be investing in an incubator and planning to hatch about 40 at a time. I have drawn up plans for a big brooder that will make for ease of use if I'm doing batches of hatching. I also hate the clamp-on heat bulbs and would be investing in the heat plate for the brooder, the big one says rated up to 50 chicks. After I get to a point I'm happy with the flock I'd like to keep the option of letting a hen brood her own chicks occasionally to repopulate the flock. And I'd be able to hatch a bunch if I want to sell them or plan a bunch to butcher at once.

4) Since the hen breeds lay brown eggs and Bresse lay cream eggs, the offspring I'm guessing will lay eggs in the range from cream to brown?

My breeding plan rough draft at the moment is...
First year:
Bresse roo x hens = F1 offspring, retain the best.
Second year:
Bresse roo x F1 hens = BC1 offspring, 75% bresse 25% original hens.
F1 roo x F1 hens = F2 offspring

From here I don't have a solid idea. I want to see what the F2 and back cross offspring look like and how they grow. With no specifics of goals I think I'll have to wait until I at least have the F1 to look at before I can really buckle down more specific goals. I want to keep the birds dual purpose. I'm keeping in mind the possibility that the crossing doesn't turn out great past F1. This experiment may show me that one of the breeds is doing much better and I go to that. We shall see.

I am doing an experiment on hybrid vigor with Bresse bred with other heritage birds. My two Dark Cornish chickens, now going on month four started crowing, so I had to catch them to put on a no crow collar. I live in a residential area and I don't want to make my neighbors upset. However, the Dark Cornish rooster's crow aren't as loud and annoying as my Bresse rooster. Anyway, I was surprised that they had a decent amount of meat on them. In addition, I was impressed with my white Plymouth Rock pullets, they are the same age and started laying large eggs before my hybrid Bresse/Australorp pullets. I just put 6 eggs from the Dark Cornish Rooster/White Plymouth Rock pullet in the incubator. I will pair the chicks from this to my Bresse Rooster/Australorp hen cross..

I personally think the Dark Cornish is the Emperor of the meat chicken world. They are magnificent birds. I think the white Plymouth Rock has recessive white color genes, so the chicks should turn out white. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_white_(chicken_plumage)

 

[HomesteadNowhere]

Either gender can have a green sheen on black, so it's not helpful if you're trying to determine gender.

If you know they are cockerels, and are just wondering whether they will get a green sheen in their tails, then probably yes.

I haven't been able to tell yet, in glances at them in the group. I just remembered I did get some pictures.
One has black tail feathers with the green sheen. One has barred tail feathers and they are kind of everywhere, bed head like, which makes me think cockerel since the hens seem to have nice 'combed in place' tail feathers. The last one I only got in one pic and it's cut off so I can't see the tail, but I want to say it has barred tail feathers too and they are the ones all beaten up looking. So I can't tell if it runs away from the advances or is lowest on the totem pole.
The pics are on my phone and I'm on the laptop right now so I'll try to post those later.
The buff cockerel got in one of the pictures. He is pretty but I don't need him. Plus with as late of a bloomer as he was I wouldn't want to use him anyhow I don't think. I did play with the calculator using a buff male, lol, so it's ok I don't think I'm missing out on anything. I'll likely get some buff and barred buff with the other crosses.