CSU - Chicken State University- Large Fowl SOP

[fowlplaypoultry]

Just started with our Mottled Javas this winter. Bought all that a breeder in North Carolina had; 4 breeds were too many. They descend from Urch, Bowen and Schuessler lines. Looking forward to reading more about others and their Javas!

 

[bnjrob]

This is one of two mottled cockerels - 10months old - that I have for breeding. He is the "beta" cockerel of the group. He is just a hair smaller than the alpha male but I think he has just a hair bit better back/tail angle than the alpha. It is hard sometimes to tell for sure how good the type is on these chickens - especially the males - because they don't like to stand for good photos very well. The middle photo shows his long back and tail angle better.

He does have some white in the wings and tail, although he has less white in the tail than the other male. He doesn't quite have the 1 in 3 white tipped feathers per the SOP, but since the females seem to have more white than the males, perhaps this is a good thing that he has more black than white.

The top photo doesn't show the darkness of his legs very well - it is lighter in the photo than in real life. The middle photo of his legs - you can see a bit of pinkish/red - have determined that this occurred after giving them some Calf Manna. The red dye in the Calf Manna seems to have brought out a pink/red color in all of the males that they did not have before. I have since stopped giving them any Calf Manna.




This is the alpha mottled cockerel above. Don't have much better photo of him as he has been living by himself for a while to recuperate from a serious eye injury. He and the other guy are similar, this one has a bit more white on him all over, as well as white in the wings and tail.






Above is 3 views of the same 10 month old pullet. I think she has ok type from the side, maybe. All of them seem a little pinched in the tail, but this one's back view doesn't look as pinched as one of the others. She has more white than some of the others.

One weird thing is that the pullets all seem to have a "waist" when you look at them from the top. Back in December they had a mini-molt, I think from stress from some crazy weather extremes, and some of their feathering has changed as it's grown back in this past month. Seeming to give them a "poof" before their tail, making their tail angle look weird, and then giving them a "waist", especially when viewed from the top.






Above 2 photos of 11 month old pullet. Lot of white in the tail. Legs are darker in person.



Here is a better example of the big poof at the back that they have gotten since their mini-molt in December. It makes her tail angle in this photo look even higher than it really is. Am hoping that this is something weird and perhaps they haven't finished growing in all the feathers yet.



10 month old pullet above.







Two pics above of the same 11 month old female. She has a LOT of white, and always has had a lot more white than the others. This back view shows how white even her fluff is. Her tail looks pinched to me but from the side she doesn't seem too terrible. This photo shows her nice yellow feet.



Above is 10 month old. Better distribution of white all over but still may be a hair much. Thinking the tail might be a tad high.



Some of them together as a group.



I think all the females need tail work. In researching Javas, I found some notations recommending there be a little bit better definition of the thigh, but most Javas don't have this definition and their thigh feathers kinda blend in with the rest of their body. I do see this blending of the leg and body in these guys.

At first everyone's feet seemed too pink, but as they have matured, most everyone has yellow feet, except for the red dye in the feed supplement that brought out red in the feet on some of them.

The males are growing really large combs. On discussion with other people, apparently the males seem to get these huge combs when they are raised here in the south.

Apparently it is difficult to get white feathers out of the wings and tails, although I saw a cockerel photo the other day that only had white in the wings but not the tail, so I guess it is possible to get the white out, just not sure how long it takes.

Did a test hatch of new incubator last month and have an almost 2 month old cockerel that we hatched. For being young, he seems to have a nice long back and good tail angle and growing like a weed, so have hopes that he will exceed his parents. Should have more mottleds hatching next week.

Thoughts?

 

[bnjrob]

These birds arrived as baby chicks from Duane Urch in mid January. They are about 6.5 weeks old. I had ordered 25 Black Java chicks, but gave a list of alternates if 25 black javas were not available. I got all Java chicks, but I am wondering if a couple of Mottled Javas got in the mix. It's too early to tell much regarding SOP conformity, but there are some questions I have. Here goes:

Most of these birds have soles that are pinkish, with no to very little yellow. A complete absence of yellow is a DQ:




A few birds have some yellow in the soles, but not as strong as I would like:




And a couple of them have definite yellow soles:



A few birds have several white-tipped body feathers. Two or more feathers tipped or edged with "positive white" is a DQ. As young chicks, these birds had lighter heads and chests than the birds that are not showing these white tips, and I was wondering even when they arrived if they were mottled or split for mottled. Probably have to wait and see what they develop into, but if anyone can tell me for sure I'd like to know:



Here's another view of the white-tipped feathers, and what looks to me like a very pinched tail:



I know these birds are very young, but there are a lot of them with pinched-looking tails. Is there a chance this will go away, or are pinched tails likely to be a major issue I need to watch out for? Here's a side x side:




Thanks for any insights y'all can give me!

Sarah

We have some Blacks too but the pullets tails embarrass me so much that I don't take as many photos of them. They seem to have been bred for higher egg production and not SOP, since they give more eggs than our Mottleds do.

But my black pullets look very similar from the top to yours and I think ours are pinched in the tail.

Some of our blacks do have some few white wing feathers but have not had them wind up with white feathers anywhere else like yours have. But, we did end up with several that started showing Auburn from our Black flock. We now have two Auburn cockerels that we've isolated to keep them from breeding till we decide what to do with them.

If the Black's eyes aren't dark, then they are likely carrying Mottled genes.

I wouldn't worry about the feet for now. As all of ours, Blacks and Mottleds, have matured, the flesh color in the feet has yellowed up better.

Just don't try to supplement with Calf Manna so you don't get the red dye settling into their feet and legs. Sheesh! I could shoot myself for that but I am having a hard time getting decent feed around here and thought I'd try it since we have had the Black pullets that are regrowing feathers from vigorous male interactions, and Mottled pullets that had their min-molt.. The feeds stores pretty much just have plain old layer feed, or vegetarian feed. Finally found a feed store that carried some game bird conditioner - no dye in it - so have started with some of that. And had to get the third degree about why I would feed game bird conditioner to a chicken.

 

[bnjrob]

Just started with our Mottled Javas this winter. Bought all that a breeder in North Carolina had; 4 breeds were too many. They descend from Urch, Bowen and Schuessler lines. Looking forward to reading more about others and their Javas!

These females look like they have a "waist" too. So maybe mine aren't weird after all???

Nice darkness to them without a ton of white yet.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
Thanks for the heads-up on the Calf Manna. I won't give it to the Javas if it's going to turn their feet pinker than they already are!

None of my birds has a really dark eye but their eyes aren't reddish bay, either, and the birds are still young. I am hoping the eyes will darken as they mature. The eye color in the photo of the one I suspect may have some mottled in him is actually pretty true to life (see quoted photo). I suspect that eye will become more reddish bay as he gets older.

Oh, geez, I don't know how I missed this... per the SOP, Mottled Javas have beaks that are "horn, shading to yellow at tip." Which describes the beaks on at least half of these birds really well, including the one in the quoted photo. Only a few of my birds have totally dark beaks. Hmmmm....

I am now wondering if my birds are the result of pairing two black javas that were split for mottled. A few of my chicks have looked more Mottled since they first arrived, and a few have looked truly Black since they first arrived, and a bunch of them look kind of in between. Which is about the ratio I'd expect from a pairing of two Black/Mottled splits. Which means if I want true Blacks I have a lot of work to do. Which I am not even going to think about until these birds are grown out more, and I have a better idea what I've got. I might just have a laying flock and a lot of stew meat. Sigh.

Sarah

 

[RattlesnakeRidgeWV]

Sarah,
They are way too young to tell anything yet. Black birds will have white tips and white feathers, but will have a juvenile molt at least 3 times befoe they mature. The yellow will get darker as they grow. About the only thing you can guess at right now is cockerel or pullet. Forget trying to apply SOP at this age.
Kurt

 

[MagicChicken]

Sarah,
They are way too young to tell anything yet. Black birds will have white tips and white feathers, but will have a juvenile molt at least 3 times befoe they mature. The yellow will get darker as they grow. About the only thing you can guess at right now is cockerel or pullet. Forget trying to apply SOP at this age.

Kurt,
Just for the record, I wasn't really "trying to apply SOP" at this age. I was just pointing out some things I had noticed about these very young birds that I am curious about because these are my first Javas. And no one else was posting photos. I am glad to hear the yellow should get darker as they grow, because the lack of yellow is an issue in another (mature) black java flock in this area. We are hoping these birds can help his flock with the yellow issue. This first year I am only culling for vigor. Haven't had to cull any since the week they arrived. I'm not even trying to guess at cockerel or pullet, although a few of the cockerels have identified themselves already.
Sarah

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Greetings bnjrob!

They look, indeed, to be a strong start for Mottled Javas. What's also nice, is that you seem to have a good little number of birds to begin with. I'll leave it to others to mention to critique on the Java conformation, but I might add a bit on the Mottled aspect, being a breeder of Anconas.

In truth, your birds aren't very evenly mottled, but that's perfectly cool; it gives you something to select for. In general, the mottling is too big. Now, one could say that it is also not the right shape, supposed to be v-shaped, but that is actually really rare to get. If you shoot for evenly distributed, small mottling that is as confined as possible to the tip of the feather, you'll reign it all in.

Of your pullets, the one above is far too mottled such that I would not hatch from her, if I were you. It's going to produce a huge amount of culls, and that is floor space that you could be valuably used for hatchings from your darker birds.

A trick to reduce white in tails and flights is to select breeders that have dark tops to their heads. Often mottled birds have almost white tops to their heads, which is then commonly reflected in the flights and tails. You want black heads with small, disciplined flecks of mottling.

So, cull the one pullet, because you're going to cull everything she produces, and if you hatch 100 to 150 and then cull down to the best 8 to 12, and do this for fie years or so, they'll be kick-***** in no time.

An author that I'm currently reading mentions that the Mottled Java, on account of popularity trends, did not receive the same sort of aggressive selection for a disciplined mottling pattern. This may account for Bob's and your birds' tendency toward large mottling. Again, it's only a matter of selection.

 

[bnjrob]

In truth, your birds aren't very evenly mottled, but that's perfectly cool; it gives you something to select for. In general, the mottling is too big. Now, one could say that it is also not the right shape, supposed to be v-shaped, but that is actually really rare to get. If you shoot for evenly distributed, small mottling that is as confined as possible to the tip of the feather, you'll reign it all in.

Of your pullets, the one above is far too mottled such that I would not hatch from her, if I were you. It's going to produce a huge amount of culls, and that is floor space that you could be valuably used for hatchings from your darker birds.

A trick to reduce white in tails and flights is to select breeders that have dark tops to their heads. Often mottled birds have almost white tops to their heads, which is then commonly reflected in the flights and tails. You want black heads with small, disciplined flecks of mottling.

No, they sure aren't very evenly mottled. They look more like they've been splashed with white paint rather than having those 1 in 3 feather tips with just a tiny bit of white. There was one that had smaller bits of white but since they decided to have their little mini-molt a couple of months ago, even that has seemed to go out the window and they are splotchy white.

I will have to inspect heads - had not heard about blacker heads being associated with getting the white out of the wings and tails. Definitely something worth knowing!

 

[thedragonlady]

We have some Blacks too but the pullets tails embarrass me so much that I don't take as many photos of them. They seem to have been bred for higher egg production and not SOP, since they give more eggs than our Mottleds do.

But my black pullets look very similar from the top to yours and I think ours are pinched in the tail.

Some of our blacks do have some few white wing feathers but have not had them wind up with white feathers anywhere else like yours have. But, we did end up with several that started showing Auburn from our Black flock. We now have two Auburn cockerels that we've isolated to keep them from breeding till we decide what to do with them.

If the Black's eyes aren't dark, then they are likely carrying Mottled genes.

I wouldn't worry about the feet for now. As all of ours, Blacks and Mottleds, have matured, the flesh color in the feet has yellowed up better.

Just don't try to supplement with Calf Manna so you don't get the red dye settling into their feet and legs. Sheesh! I could shoot myself for that but I am having a hard time getting decent feed around here and thought I'd try it since we have had the Black pullets that are regrowing feathers from vigorous male interactions, and Mottled pullets that had their min-molt.. The feeds stores pretty much just have plain old layer feed, or vegetarian feed. Finally found a feed store that carried some game bird conditioner - no dye in it - so have started with some of that. And had to get the third degree about why I would feed game bird conditioner to a chicken.

I've fed a lot of breeds Calf Manna over 50 years, and I've never seen it turn feet pink. There is not enough dye in there to do that. Feed some scratch, or cracked corn, and see what happens.