Culling Chicks Opinion Changed =/

[hokankai]

I don't believe I'm mean for wanting to make sure that the animals God placed on this earth stay the way He made them.

"...in order to preserve what we have been given to provide and care for on this planet, and I believe part of that is making sure that animals aren't turned into something unrecognizable from what they were created to be."

THIS made me laugh. You're kidding right? God did not create breeds, we did. Humans decided they wanted an animal for a certain purpose a certain way and inbred the crap out of them until they looked and did what we wanted. You're actually doing the complete opposite...because nature doesn't take breed into consideration.

Culling (the killing kind) on the basis of perfection is totally unnecessary, unless it's for a deformity that affects the quality of life of the animal or the animal is aggressive. Not everyone hatches chicks and not everyone cares about breeds. If you have a chick that doesn't look right, find it a home where someone else will appreciate its existence. Don't call it a brahma, then it doesn't matter if it doesn't look perfect. There's more than one way to cull...just rehome them.

I think the reason your perspective has changed is because you've become so fixated on one aspect of chicken keeping that it's put your blinders on. No offense, but your few birds are not going to change the chicken world, and I don't think a few oddball birds are going to change the face of a breed. Again, sell them as mixes and they won't be considered a particular breed.

I think killing imperfect birds because they don't look the way you want is selfish and a complete waste of an animal. At least eat them or something or give them to someone else to eat.

And P.S. I personally love vulture hocks.

 

[CluckyCharms]

THIS made me laugh. You're kidding right? God did not create breeds, we did. Humans decided they wanted an animal for a certain purpose a certain way and inbred the crap out of them until they looked and did what we wanted. You're actually doing the complete opposite...because nature doesn't take breed into consideration.

Culling (the killing kind) on the basis of perfection is totally unnecessary, unless it's for a deformity that affects the quality of life of the animal or the animal is aggressive. Not everyone hatches chicks and not everyone cares about breeds. If you have a chick that doesn't look right, find it a home where someone else will appreciate its existence. Don't call it a brahma, then it doesn't matter if it doesn't look perfect. There's more than one way to cull...just rehome them.

I think the reason your perspective has changed is because you've become so fixated on one aspect of chicken keeping that it's put your blinders on. No offense, but your few birds are not going to change the chicken world, and I don't think a few oddball birds are going to change the face of a breed. Again, sell them as mixes and they won't be considered a particular breed.

I think killing imperfect birds because they don't look the way you want is selfish and a complete waste of an animal. At least eat them or something or give them to someone else to eat.

And P.S. I personally love vulture hocks.

I'm not saying you're wrong in regard to blinders - I could possibly have that problem and yet again - so could you. And please, don't say "no offense" to people and then purposely be offensive in your writing style. Calling someone selfish and ridiculing their viewpoint while you accuse them of having blinders on - is purposely being offensive in every detail of the word.

That being what it is - I never said nor indicated that God made chicken breeds. What I said was "I don't believe I'm mean for wanting to make sure that the animals God placed on this earth stay the way He made them." It means exactly what I said. Chickens were made as chickens (I do not believe in evolution whatsoever) and I believe that it is up to us to keep these chickens in such a manner that would keep them the way He created them - just as I said. He created them to be ours, to be taken care of by righteous people who have regard for their animals. Do you think people are having any regard for their chickens when they know people have tried very hard to keep certain breeds of chicken "just so" and then purposely breed some awkward deformity or serious flaw into that breed, knowing it is not what was intended for that type of chicken? I don't, nor do I have any intention of indulging you with an ongoing argument while you speculate on what I did or did not mean. *blocks for attitude* There are ways of expressing your opinion in an inoffensive manner, as others on this thread have done - it's called etiquette. "Thick skin" on my part isn't the problem...at all.

 

[Funky Feathers]

Mille Fleur Cochins (bantam). Wry Neck would have ruined the project for everyone in it.

ETA: An old customer of mine, 3 years ago bought some of them from me right around the time I discovered the problem. I told her to please cull them, I gave her a full refund, was very polite to her, and to this day she is still spouting off nasty comments about me, saying I have "inferior stock"! So I cull HARD. What do ppl not understand about that??

Would she rather you not said a word and let her have a flock full of wry neck birds? She should have been thanking you for being honest and bringing to her attention that there was a problem, and admiring you for requesting that she cull them as not to further breed the wry.  I don't understand some people, but I guess that's why we're all different.

She was mad even after she got a full refund! I just don't get some people. What more did she want?? She just made one of my customers' 11 year old sons cry, telling him the bird he bought was inferior and would be laughed out of a 4-H fair because his mom bought it from me! WTH????

 

[hokankai]

Sometimes I hate the internet. It's impossible to get your tone across successfully, especially for blunt people like me and when it comes to "can of worms" discussions like these. I apologize if you felt like I was attacking you or something, but this is just a huge pet peeve of mine in general when it comes to humans keeping any sort of animal. When people like you say that you're trying to protect God's creatures or whatever and then decide to take it upon yourself to decide who deserves to exist or not based on a set of human-defined standards...it seems extremely hypocritical to me. There are so many other simple and easy ways to fix this problem than simply killing them to make you feel better about your breeding practices. Again, I don't include deformities, aggression, or other hereditary qualities that affect health...just aesthetics.

Oh, and when you look at a mix breed and wonder how it got messed up, thank meiosis and DNA recombination and mutation for that. Many of the weird qualities we see in animals are just a fluke that occured and happened to be breedable, just like the feathered legs of a brahma. If the original chicken domesticators saw our birds today I'm sure they too would wonder how they got all messed up.

And also, it's the quirky mix of genes that CREATE breeds. Who's to say that someone won't discover a fantastic mix of breeds and decide to create a new breed altogether? That's one of the reasons chickens are so fantastic, they aren't all the same!

 

[CluckyCharms]

*unblocks momentarily because I'm nosy* I'll have you know that I have *yet* to cull or kill anything at all because of appearance. This is simply something that my opinion has rotated to versus what it used to be. If people would have actually read my thread the way it was written instead of the way they perceive it to be they would have seen that I TOO am wondering why I have changed so drastically in this regard...but most people all they see is "I love killing chickens" which is so far from what my post was about. Several times I reiterated that I don't know why my feelings regarding this have changed. I was hoping someone would step up and tell me "perhaps it is because of this or that that you read about here, etc" or offer reasons as to why a person would feel very strongly in 1 direction and then completely do a 180 in a few months - in a helpful manner!! but like I said - everyone (except for those who agree with me) saw something else entirely because they're so amped up thinking of me being a chicken murderer that they can't see past the end of that to the sentiment of the post!

I culled ONE baby chick because her foot was in her face, her hip was near her midsection and her entire wing was literally jointed completely wrong and backwards. She would NEVER walk normally and would have spent her life balancing on her beak or chest? no way.

I am considering culling a very nasty little chick because he causes others to bleed, he plucks feathers, he will not let others eat near him. he will not let others snuggle with him. He won't let me clean his bottom without ripping my fingernail parts apart. HE IS MEAN and I don't feel he should be in the world being as nasty as he is. The vulture hocks drive me crazy because he's a brahma and I was TOLD he was Dan Powell lines and I believe I was lied to, because as far as I have heard, Mr. Powell made certain not to have hockies in his brahmas. Therefore, yes, I planned on culling him anyway....he has hocks at one week of age and they are not in allignment with a Brahma.

My husband culled a d'uccle for acting the same way that the roo above acted - was a complete Rosemary's baby.

Therefore - (almost) everyone is casting judgment upon me for something I haven't even DONE yet (but still believe in at this current time).

 

[CluckyCharms]

I'd also like to know why I feel this way folks - and what caused the drastic change. I said that very clearly in my first post and I also asked if anyone ELSE had felt this way. One person did...which isn't promising.

Maybe I do have blinders on but saying it that way won't help me to see any sort of perspective other than my own. People tend to respect other people and want to hear them out when they are spoken to respectfully instead of condescendingly or with very little regard to the effect it may have on the person being spoken to.

Lastly - part of me doesn't agree with my own opinion - because there ARE what people call "sports" out there which are not up to par with the standards....but those sports have had a huge impact in making the overall breed actually BETTER than it was before. For example, a wheaten marans roo pops out of a black copper marans pairing - and now all the wheatens in his line are laying insanely dark eggs, like a Marans should lay!! Would they lay those beautiful eggs had that "sport that wasn't standard" been killed/culled, etc? Nope...they wouldn't...they'd still be laying lighter eggs from the normal wheaten lines.

That being said - there are always exceptions that should make everyone wonder about their own views. Perhaps I feel this way *because* I want to breed chickens and I can't where I live, so I feel people should be doing more to breed birds properly instead of willy-nilly...since I can't - they should be doing it right (or what my view of right is). Is this a completely fubar way of thinking? Yes, but at least I'm the one being honest in this thread. I never....ever...said I was right. I said several times that this is my view, my opinion and my feeling on the breeding and culling of chickens...sheesh.

 

[hokankai]

I actually did read your entire thread before posting and know full well that a. you only killed one chick and haven't killed any others yet, b. love your chickens (especially EEs and brahmas) and c. had a change in perspective only recently. Just wanted to let you know that I did read and therefore I'm no judging you on a choice you made. I'm only trying to make you see another perspective of your own opinion and find an alternative solution to make both you and the imperfect chicken happy. You don't have to call your birds brahmas when you sell them...and that way potential buyers aren't going to think their birds are brahmas.

I also am stating again (I've already said it in both my other posts, but here it is again) that I AGREE with culling when it comes to severe deformities, aggression, and carrying a genetic trait that can cause health concerns in birds down the line (wry neck, severe crossbeak, etc).

As to what made you change opinions so quickly, only you really know what's going on in your own head. My guess is that you've found this breed that you enjoy tremendously and now feel as if you need to do all in your power to protect and preserve it, as if you now have some sort of stewardship over them. Because of this it has become sort of a "the end justifies the means" sort of thing...if that makes sense. Killing the imperfect for the sake of the perfect (wow that sounds very...Hitleresque, haha) to protect the breed. When you look at the situation with your logical brain taking a life isn't going to be a big deal in your mind, and that's why your own opinion is offensive to you when your emotional brain thinks about it.

For me, I love variety and embrace uniqueness in my flock. I believe that each of my animals are here to teach me a unique lesson that only they can teach me, and therefore see each life as worth fighting for. You see an imperfection, I see individuality. It's just different. I don't see breeds as static entities, but rather an evolving thing that changes with time. Just look at dog breeds when they were first created to what they are now.

I really hope you can alter your opinion a bit and look into other alternatives for culling those that don't fit your (or whoever's) standards aesthetically. However, when it comes to the health and temperaments of my birds, I do agree with you.

 

[CluckyCharms]

I actually did read your entire thread before posting and know full well that a. you only killed one chick and haven't killed any others yet, b. love your chickens (especially EEs and brahmas) and c. had a change in perspective only recently. Just wanted to let you know that I did read and therefore I'm no judging you on a choice you made. I'm only trying to make you see another perspective of your own opinion and find an alternative solution to make both you and the imperfect chicken happy. You don't have to call your birds brahmas when you sell them...and that way potential buyers aren't going to think their birds are brahmas.

I also am stating again (I've already said it in both my other posts, but here it is again) that I AGREE with culling when it comes to severe deformities, aggression, and carrying a genetic trait that can cause health concerns in birds down the line (wry neck, severe crossbeak, etc).

As to what made you change opinions so quickly, only you really know what's going on in your own head. My guess is that you've found this breed that you enjoy tremendously and now feel as if you need to do all in your power to protect and preserve it, as if you now have some sort of stewardship over them. Because of this it has become sort of a "the end justifies the means" sort of thing...if that makes sense. Killing the imperfect for the sake of the perfect (wow that sounds very...Hitleresque, haha) to protect the breed. When you look at the situation with your logical brain taking a life isn't going to be a big deal in your mind, and that's why your own opinion is offensive to you when your emotional brain thinks about it.

For me, I love variety and embrace uniqueness in my flock. I believe that each of my animals are here to teach me a unique lesson that only they can teach me, and therefore see each life as worth fighting for. You see an imperfection, I see individuality. It's just different. I don't see breeds as static entities, but rather an evolving thing that changes with time. Just look at dog breeds when they were first created to what they are now.

I really hope you can alter your opinion a bit and look into other alternatives for culling those that don't fit your (or whoever's) standards aesthetically. However, when it comes to the health and temperaments of my birds, I do agree with you.

See..that post still told me I had blinders on but you said it a lot more compassionately and respectfully and in a way that made me want to hear you out. I think you're possibly correct with regard to certain breeds that I really feel strongly about...that may be the reason behind the reason, so to speak. Thank you for posting what you did. Even though you still disagree with killing for breed flaws, you said it in such a way that made me *want* to really listen and really think about what you were saying and whether or not it may apply to me. Before I just wanted to hit block. This time you were not attacking and what you said in regard to justification and preservation and emotional brain made sense. I do tend to completely disregard logic (I'm not fond of it at all) but in this situation perhaps it could do some good to use some. I'll think about what you said for sure, because much of it did make sense.

I still feel it's best to breed to the SOP. Yes, humans made breeds and humans made the SOP, but humans who made the breeds and the SOP did so to better the fowl they are fond of: chickens.

I'm not a breeder yet, but when (and I do mean when, not if) I become one, I want my flock to be a flock that stands out among the best regarding their composition. That also has a lot to do with why I feel the way I feel.

 

[ChickensRDinos]

I do not think that people who are not willing to cull should breed. It is a responsibility. If you are going to keep and breed birds and never sell them or let them get loose then do whatever you want but if you are going to sell birds then culling is part of maintaining a healthy, strong and true gene pool.

We are discussing a domesticated animal here that is primarily a food source. I think your opinion has chanced because you have developed a since of realism and perspective about the situation. You have decided to hold yourself to a certain standard of health, behavior, quality and overall well-being for a best possible flock. I have also culled a bird who was a terrible bully and all of my birds have better lives because of it. I have never regretted it. Each choice to cull or not cull is a personal one and I think what you decide to do with pets is fine but in a breeding program these are quality and business decisions.

I do think if you kill a bird that is edible you should eat it. I do not see how eating a bird is ever a waste. I am be odd but I consider it respectful.

 

[Hatch me if you can]

hokankai; it looks as though you have a very definitive opinion about your birds. And you are allowed that OPINION. That being said CluckyCharms is also entitled to an opinion about the same subject. "Hoping" someone will alter their opinion on something is just plain "Hitleresque" if you don't mind me saying. My two cents on the subject.

(I guess I should duck for cover now)