Here are some other shots of my sons 'roo (actually, cockerel since he is only 6-7 months old). Any comments towards quality would be appreciated.
d'anver lovers,discuss the breed and post some pics!
- Thread starter Boggy Bottom Bantams
- Start date
4HDad - I would like to comment about your cockerel. For starters, let me just say that you do not find birds that have as good of conformation as that Self Blue cockerel very often. Second off, that boy is backed up with some nice color. Impressive.
Let me start with his head and I'll work my way to the tail.
Comb: A bit rough and the base is a bit high. Also, there is a blade shaped spike that does not follow the contour of the head. He does have rounded points on the comb, but ideally they should be "fine, small, tooth-shaped, rounded points". We are talking no more than 4mm in height or width. This is why I say the comb is a bit rough because those rounded points are a bit on the large side. Also, there appears to be a slight hollowed out portion of the comb on the back end of it. I say the comb is a bit high because a d'Anver is supposed to have a wedge shaped comb of helmet fit. This means that the point of attachment should never be visible. If it is, it means your comb is not following the contour of the head close enough. The start of the comb is a bit narrow, but I am being picky now. The comb is my biggest critique on your bird. It is also the easiest to fix through breeding and it is not worth very many points in the show room. So, no worries.
Eyes: Round, bright, healthy AND the proper color.
Face: Can't really see much of it - so great! Looks red and healthy and free of wrinkles, folds and bristles.
Wattles: Very small, almost non-existant, which is exactly what you want.
Skull: Looks broad. Well developed. The brow is well furnished with feathers.
Beak: Medium in length, strong, curved.
Beard and Muffs: A bit shallow in the beard and there is not the best definition between the beard and muffs, but again, this is usually an easy fix through breeding. I would say they are on the small side of the average, but certainly better than some others I have seen.
Neck: Well developed for a cockerel! In the top picture he is holding his head a bit high, but you can see a convex curvature of the hackles that suggests he really is going to be developing a bull neck. This is fantastic! His neck in the last picture is being held where it should be height wise, but I can not tell how far back he holds it. In traditional Belgian type it should be held well back from the breast. It looks like he might carry it a bit forward though. The hackles do not meet in the front of the neck though, so there is a bit more work that can be done in the hackle department. Not many d'Anvers exhibit that trait anyway.
Back: Very short and very broad, you can tell its breadth through the last photo with your boy facing the camera. He has a nice, thick and cobby body. Also, if he was holding his head down and back in the top picture like he is in the lower pictures, I imagine some of those hackle feathers touch the base of the tail, which is exactly what most Belgian standards call for (I think this was left out in the American standard). You can tell his back slants to his tail because his breast is carried a bit higher than the base of the tail, which is perfect. The back is worth a lot of points in the standard and it says a lot about the quality of this bird.
Breast: Well filled out, carried proudly, good.
Wings: Large and slung low as to cover the thighs and the upper legs - beautiful! The American standard only specifies "slanting towards hocks" or something rather nondescript such as that. If you really get into Belgian history though and discuss type with overseas breeders, you find that the wings really should be low - just a hair from touching the ground! Keep in mind that they should not be perfectly perpendicular or carried before the legs, that is just awkward. Your boy carries them well. You can tell that this is his natural wing carriage too because posterior border of the wing is right next to the saddle. In males carrying their wings artificially low relative to their normal stance, you will see a gap containing under-feathers between the saddle and the wing border. The fact that this is the natural carriage of your cockerel is impressive.
Legs and Thighs: Well set apart - legs are the length they should be. They say you can tell if a bird has the proper leg length by looking at their profile - the near foot should be just visible beyond the low-slung wing. Your bird fits this description to a T! Again, most d'Anvers have legs that are too long. My only concern is the fact that your bird looks a bit bow-legged in the last photo. I assumed it was just the way he was standing. Either way, both his middle toes point a bit inward and the one leg is sitting a bit funny. It's probably just a fluke though.
Saddle and Tail Coverts: Short, carried well up the tail but not profuse enough to obscure the tail. As it should be. The Self Blue gene makes this area seem a bit rough, but you really can not get around that in this variety.
Main Sickles: Short, barely curved and extending just beyond the main tail. This is precisely how they are supposed to look. They are supposed to have a distinct point at the end, but again the Self Blue gene makes this difficult to achieve.
Tail: I would say the tail carriage is actually a bit low. He looks like he carries his tail at about 50 degrees above the horizontal. Standard calls for 75 degrees. But, this is not necessarily a bad thing. For breeding this is a very good thing, as most d'Anvers carry their tail higher with age and it is nice to have a sire that helps prevent squirrel tailed offspring. It's always good to start a bit on the low side. The main tail is well spread and the gaps between the feathers are minimal. There is some funny business going on with the lower feathers near the bottom, looks like one of the lower feathers is longer than it should be, but he is a cockerel and this is probably something that will sort itself out with the yearling molt.
Overall Assessment: Hang on to this bird, he is a jewel. Whoever bred him has a good idea of what a Belgian d'Anver is supposed to look like and did a very nice job of bringing that type to reality.
Color: Ah yes, and his color is good too - I did not see cream lacing, brownish tingr or the usual inconsistencies you see in Self Blues. There are some stress marks on the feathers, but this is very very common when you get a high quality, clear Self Blue. Seems like the better the Self Blue color you get, the more stress marks and shredded edges you get. Just some of the hazards of the variety I guess.
Let me start with his head and I'll work my way to the tail.
Comb: A bit rough and the base is a bit high. Also, there is a blade shaped spike that does not follow the contour of the head. He does have rounded points on the comb, but ideally they should be "fine, small, tooth-shaped, rounded points". We are talking no more than 4mm in height or width. This is why I say the comb is a bit rough because those rounded points are a bit on the large side. Also, there appears to be a slight hollowed out portion of the comb on the back end of it. I say the comb is a bit high because a d'Anver is supposed to have a wedge shaped comb of helmet fit. This means that the point of attachment should never be visible. If it is, it means your comb is not following the contour of the head close enough. The start of the comb is a bit narrow, but I am being picky now. The comb is my biggest critique on your bird. It is also the easiest to fix through breeding and it is not worth very many points in the show room. So, no worries.
Eyes: Round, bright, healthy AND the proper color.
Face: Can't really see much of it - so great! Looks red and healthy and free of wrinkles, folds and bristles.
Wattles: Very small, almost non-existant, which is exactly what you want.
Skull: Looks broad. Well developed. The brow is well furnished with feathers.
Beak: Medium in length, strong, curved.
Beard and Muffs: A bit shallow in the beard and there is not the best definition between the beard and muffs, but again, this is usually an easy fix through breeding. I would say they are on the small side of the average, but certainly better than some others I have seen.
Neck: Well developed for a cockerel! In the top picture he is holding his head a bit high, but you can see a convex curvature of the hackles that suggests he really is going to be developing a bull neck. This is fantastic! His neck in the last picture is being held where it should be height wise, but I can not tell how far back he holds it. In traditional Belgian type it should be held well back from the breast. It looks like he might carry it a bit forward though. The hackles do not meet in the front of the neck though, so there is a bit more work that can be done in the hackle department. Not many d'Anvers exhibit that trait anyway.
Back: Very short and very broad, you can tell its breadth through the last photo with your boy facing the camera. He has a nice, thick and cobby body. Also, if he was holding his head down and back in the top picture like he is in the lower pictures, I imagine some of those hackle feathers touch the base of the tail, which is exactly what most Belgian standards call for (I think this was left out in the American standard). You can tell his back slants to his tail because his breast is carried a bit higher than the base of the tail, which is perfect. The back is worth a lot of points in the standard and it says a lot about the quality of this bird.
Breast: Well filled out, carried proudly, good.
Wings: Large and slung low as to cover the thighs and the upper legs - beautiful! The American standard only specifies "slanting towards hocks" or something rather nondescript such as that. If you really get into Belgian history though and discuss type with overseas breeders, you find that the wings really should be low - just a hair from touching the ground! Keep in mind that they should not be perfectly perpendicular or carried before the legs, that is just awkward. Your boy carries them well. You can tell that this is his natural wing carriage too because posterior border of the wing is right next to the saddle. In males carrying their wings artificially low relative to their normal stance, you will see a gap containing under-feathers between the saddle and the wing border. The fact that this is the natural carriage of your cockerel is impressive.
Legs and Thighs: Well set apart - legs are the length they should be. They say you can tell if a bird has the proper leg length by looking at their profile - the near foot should be just visible beyond the low-slung wing. Your bird fits this description to a T! Again, most d'Anvers have legs that are too long. My only concern is the fact that your bird looks a bit bow-legged in the last photo. I assumed it was just the way he was standing. Either way, both his middle toes point a bit inward and the one leg is sitting a bit funny. It's probably just a fluke though.
Saddle and Tail Coverts: Short, carried well up the tail but not profuse enough to obscure the tail. As it should be. The Self Blue gene makes this area seem a bit rough, but you really can not get around that in this variety.
Main Sickles: Short, barely curved and extending just beyond the main tail. This is precisely how they are supposed to look. They are supposed to have a distinct point at the end, but again the Self Blue gene makes this difficult to achieve.
Tail: I would say the tail carriage is actually a bit low. He looks like he carries his tail at about 50 degrees above the horizontal. Standard calls for 75 degrees. But, this is not necessarily a bad thing. For breeding this is a very good thing, as most d'Anvers carry their tail higher with age and it is nice to have a sire that helps prevent squirrel tailed offspring. It's always good to start a bit on the low side. The main tail is well spread and the gaps between the feathers are minimal. There is some funny business going on with the lower feathers near the bottom, looks like one of the lower feathers is longer than it should be, but he is a cockerel and this is probably something that will sort itself out with the yearling molt.
Overall Assessment: Hang on to this bird, he is a jewel. Whoever bred him has a good idea of what a Belgian d'Anver is supposed to look like and did a very nice job of bringing that type to reality.
Color: Ah yes, and his color is good too - I did not see cream lacing, brownish tingr or the usual inconsistencies you see in Self Blues. There are some stress marks on the feathers, but this is very very common when you get a high quality, clear Self Blue. Seems like the better the Self Blue color you get, the more stress marks and shredded edges you get. Just some of the hazards of the variety I guess.
Looking over the comb again, when I see the profile shot I see that the rounded points aren't as big as I thought they were, so maybe the comb isn't too rough, but the rounded points still seem to borderline the coarse side.
KristenR, Wow! Thank you for a very detailed review!!! Your in depth details will help when evaluating the other d'Anvers we have and will be getting. I have read through the Standard a few times, but a lot of it I didn't really understand. Your information helps with that.
We got these birds from another 4-H family whose daughter showed them, but they didn't want to keep them around. They have a trio of Quail d'Anver that my son will probably be getting as soon as we make space for them.
Their d'Anvers came from Tim Bowles from Lucasville, OH. I'm not sure where he got his stock or how long he has been breeding them. He is an APA judge and from what I have found is better known for his work with standard size breeds.
Thanks again!
Roger
We got these birds from another 4-H family whose daughter showed them, but they didn't want to keep them around. They have a trio of Quail d'Anver that my son will probably be getting as soon as we make space for them.
Their d'Anvers came from Tim Bowles from Lucasville, OH. I'm not sure where he got his stock or how long he has been breeding them. He is an APA judge and from what I have found is better known for his work with standard size breeds.
Thanks again!
Roger
Yes Kristin that little black pullet tried to crow yesterday.
- Thread starter
- #4,316
Tim fairly well known for his d'anver too. A lot of my stock came from Tom Shephard, one of Tims buddies up there, and he did get me quite a few from Tim as well. What I got were all good birds. So they should be from some fairly nice stock.
Kristens review of yours was pretty much spot on. Over all, nice bird, not a show stopper in competition, but he should make from a nice breeder bird. Few little things that were pointed out could use some tweeking, but all in all, good starter bird for sure.
How I didnt miss anyone. I was in the Gulf all weekend fishinga tournament believe it or not....We just acted like there wasnt a hurricane or nothing out there...LOL YES it was extremely ruff !!! Some time I do stupid stuff (like fish in a hurricane)
Roger, you are welcome for my in-depth review. I am glad that it helped you visualize the breed a bit more.
Quote from NanaKat:
The Black ones are sneaky. I know with mine they have black shading on the comb right up until the last second, then BAM! It's a rooster with a bright red comb trying to crow. In my opinion they are the trickiest variety to sex in the d'Anver.
Quote from NanaKat:
The Black ones are sneaky. I know with mine they have black shading on the comb right up until the last second, then BAM! It's a rooster with a bright red comb trying to crow. In my opinion they are the trickiest variety to sex in the d'Anver.
JJ sorry about your boy.
I lost one of Rufus' girls today. Right in front of me too. She came over to me for a chest rub and when I turned to rub another girl, she screamed and fell over. She literally went from red comb and talking to me to scream and purple combed dead...in less than a split second. It was his favorite porcelain girl too...the little toerag bit me and hung on so tight that when I lifted Blossom up, Rufus came off the ground hanging onto my wrist. Which leads me to my next comment......I have to say that so far we love our two girls. I keep our sliding door open when they are outside in the backyard and today they came in to find us in the livingroom. One flew up and perched in front of the tv and the other claimed OH's recliner.When we took them back outside they didn't make a fuss and they love following the kids around the yard. So far, this may be my favourite breed. Lovely, lovely birds.
Oh yes the girls are indeed lovely the boys however.....are toerags. See above....ask Cyn about her current boy, heck ask anyone who owns one.....hahahahahaha
Yes you are...I swear Bill will either kill me or divorce me if I go to Georgia one more time and come home with a Jeep full of chickens. hehehehe Unless of course I pacify him by bringing Isaac home for him...then he would not even noticed the other 20 or 30 I had. He'd be too busy showing Ike where he was gonna sit in the truck and discussing where they wanted to cruise too first. LOL
I am adding a head shot of one of my current Blue Silver Quail cockerels for a good comb visual. This bird is really not turning out all that great since he started developing a wry tail, but he did get a good comb, so he makes a good temporary educational bird I guess. His comb fits close to the skull and you will notice that it does have texture (rounded points). This is what I think the standard means by small tooth-like rounded points. His comb could be a bit wider in the front and the spike is only medium length (I like them a little bit longer). Overall though, it shows a great wedge shape, is close to the skull, has good texture (not smooth or coarse) and the spike is round and blends right in to the rest of the comb.
I have some oddities that I hatched out this year that I'd like to share:
First, what I believe to be a Lavender Quail:
Followed by what is definitely a Lavender Isabel Columbian - or whatever you call Porcelain without the Mottle gene next to a Blue pullet that has amorphous chunks of white all over her belly. I am assuming she is going to be a Blue Mottled but I honestly can not recall the last time I had a Mottled bird. Point being, my Blacks and Blues do not carry Mottled...but she came from the portion of my line that was used to breath new life into the White d'Anver strain. So my whites could carry Mottling. Does she look like she might be a Blue Mottled? It's been way too long. All I know is that my Blacks and Blues have never grown in big white chunks of feathers like this.
And here is the Blue Mottled's sister - and, yup - she looks like a Mottled to me too. You can not see it in this picture but her tail feathers coming in have spots too. Has anybody had birds that look like this at 8 weeks grow out to be normal Blacks?
And this one isn't weird, but I liked her color. My Blues do not have very good lacing usually and it almost looks like this 7 week old pullet has some:
- Thread starter
- #4,320
Thanks for sharing the pics Kristen!
Yes that is what I tend to look for comb wise too, just a bit wider up front as you said though, but yes an overall good visual.
On the porcelain minus mottled, I just call the lavender buff columbians, haha either is right though.
On the blue mottled birds. They tend to hatch penquin colored, about half black ( or blue in this case) and half white.
If they didnt, I wouldnt think they have the mottled gene but maybe some fluke that will end up making them almost pied looking.
I have 2 lavender hens that started out beautiful lavender their first year. The second molt they turned 100% perfect lavender mottled, the third molt, patchy white, and this year totally snow ball white.
Had another lady send me some bantam phoenix chick pics. Her birds were duckwing based, but started out nearly pied looking with white patches all over them. This would be more like yours being they started as chicks, ( I have an adult imported silver phoenix thats colored this way). My lavender though had something that slowly caused a loss of pigment.
Not 100% sure what the cause of either is, but I have seen it several times, especially on here with various breeds at different ages..
All that being said, if there was mottling back in the lines of both parents it could be possible, but it would need to be in both the parents for it to show in the chicks like it is. So not sure exactly what it is, mottling would be nice in some blues. I have some split mottled blues I plan to breed next year just for that. Keep some follow up pics of them if you get time, I'm curious to see how they turn out.
Yes that is what I tend to look for comb wise too, just a bit wider up front as you said though, but yes an overall good visual.
On the porcelain minus mottled, I just call the lavender buff columbians, haha either is right though.
On the blue mottled birds. They tend to hatch penquin colored, about half black ( or blue in this case) and half white.
If they didnt, I wouldnt think they have the mottled gene but maybe some fluke that will end up making them almost pied looking.
I have 2 lavender hens that started out beautiful lavender their first year. The second molt they turned 100% perfect lavender mottled, the third molt, patchy white, and this year totally snow ball white.
Had another lady send me some bantam phoenix chick pics. Her birds were duckwing based, but started out nearly pied looking with white patches all over them. This would be more like yours being they started as chicks, ( I have an adult imported silver phoenix thats colored this way). My lavender though had something that slowly caused a loss of pigment.
Not 100% sure what the cause of either is, but I have seen it several times, especially on here with various breeds at different ages..
All that being said, if there was mottling back in the lines of both parents it could be possible, but it would need to be in both the parents for it to show in the chicks like it is. So not sure exactly what it is, mottling would be nice in some blues. I have some split mottled blues I plan to breed next year just for that. Keep some follow up pics of them if you get time, I'm curious to see how they turn out.
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