De-worm or not to de-worm, that is the question

[Cheryl1948]

My 16 hens have been laying very inconsistently for a couple of weeks. And, some are without a shell and one looked like a "gumball" is was so small. A couple of the girls seem to be having diarrhea. And, now, as of yesterday afternoon, one girl is acting very sick. It appears she is not eating, but she is definitely drinking. She mostly just stands around looking pitiful, and, she doesn't seem to even want to walk. I did see her fly up on the outside roosting pole. She roosted last night with everyone else.

My hens are 1-1/2 yrs. old and have never been de-wormed. So, I have put Wazine in their water today. I read there was a 2wk. period that the eggs should not be eaten. But, on another site I read that if you give your flock Wazine, you can NEVER eat their eggs again.

Does anyone know about that?

I am so confused as to what to do and I don't have an avian vet in this area.

 

[Kikiriki]

Sounds like more than just a worm problem...sounds like it may be an illness running through the flock. The one with the worst immunity to it may be the one that is worst off, or it may be that she was weaker to start out.

I don't know that I would worm them until I was sure it was not an illness...

What did the diarrhea look like? (Did you look at the chicken poop chart?)
Are they underweight? How is the coloring of their ears combs wattles? Are they eating less or more than they used to? Worms will make them eat more because they don't get nutrients...

Have you examined the poop for worms? Have you examined them for external parasites?

These are some "home remedy" type things that have science behind them:

Chickens

Enteritis
http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...e=online&aid=8976474&fileId=S0007114512006083
Capsicum and turmeric

Coccidiosis
http://www.researchgate.net/publica...Immunity_against_Eimeria_acervulina_Infection
Capsicum, turmeric, and shiitake mushroom

Better growth and feed use efficiency
https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publications/jas/articles/92/4/1531
carvacrol (from oregano), cinnamaldehyde (from cinnamon), and capsicum
And
http://www.researchgate.net/profile...PICE_HERBS/links/549fcd860cf257a635fe78b5.pdf
Garlic, black pepper, red pepper

Newcastle Disease
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378874101003701
Aloe
And
http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/85/12/2169.full
Bee propolis and horny goat weed

Salmonella
http://www.uokufa.edu.iq/journals/index.php/kjvs/article/view/2385
Capsicum

Fowl typhoid
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037887410100397X
Aloe

Egg shell thickness and reduced bacteria in poop
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00071668.2014.938020?journalCode=cbps20&
Longevity Spinach

Some varieties of Influenza (this study did not include poultry, but I would try it)
http://www.researchgate.net/profile...za_viruses/links/0f317538efdb7b23d6000000.pdf
Agrimonia pilosa (hairy agrimony of the rosacea family)

This one includes other plants for influenza, but it only shows the abstract.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11101-014-9357-1

Mondia: white's ginger a tropical vine native to Africa
Phytochemicals and nutritional status
Studies were undertaken to establish important phytochemicals and its nutritional status to support the traditional claims and enhance the species value for improved marketing and conservation. The main flavouring principle preferred by consumer was identified as 2-hydroxy-4-methoxy benzaldelyde. Both root and leaves extract were active against, brine shrimp. The root extract were active against Neisseria gonorrhea, and superior to minoglycine drug used for control of sexually transmitted diseases (STD). Both root and leaves showed antibacterial effect against Escherichia coli, Salmonella typhii, Pseudomonas auriginosa, Bacilus subtilis, Staphylococcus aureus and Shigallae dysentrae. Escherichia coli was more susceptible while Salmonella tyhpii showed the least. Fungal bioassay carried out on Candida albicans and Aspergillus niger showed root extract to be more potent than leaf extracts.

Roots and leaves showed varied significant amount of proteins mineral vitamins and sugars depending on source. Mean concentration levels of minerals varied as potassium 11.34 - 32.05 mg/g, Sodium 5.61 - 24 mg/g, Magnesium 1.40 - 2.83 mg/g, Calcium 3.08 - 8.25mg/g, Iron 0.20 - 0.43 mg/g, Zinc 0.03 - 0.07 mg/g, Copper 0.003 - 0.06 mg/g, Manganese 0.64 - 0.05 mg/g, Cadmium and Lead were in trace amounts. Crude protein ranged form 4.35 mg/g - 21.8 mg/g, highest being from leaves. Vitamin varied as B carotene 4.35 - 21.81 ugg-1, Thiamine 0.78 - 3.70 mgg-1, Niacin 0.52 - 8.15 mgg-1, Riboflavin 0.62 - 2.45 mgg-1 and sugars, fructose 7.908 - 15.26 ugg-1, Xylose 9.17 - 18.70, glucose 2.40 - 9.0.

Comparison of basal diets for animal feeds, showed Mondia leaves had high crude protein and ash percentage of 20.25 and 16.98 respectively while dairy meal had crude protein and ash percentages 16.76 and 7.83 respectively. These results support traditional medical claim on use of Mondia whytei. The results show it has potential for human and animal health care. The chemical and phytochemical results have been used to reschedule Mondia whtyei products for quality assurance that are now being sold in leading Kenyan supermarkets.

 

[Cheryl1948]

Kikiriki, thanks for the info. I did look at the poop chart and the closest looking poop is the clear with a little bit of poop in it. The caption said it was from a hen that may have had worms or egg peritonitis. But, there were no worms in the poop picture. I have not seen any worms in my chickens' poop, but understand a fecal test would have to be done to eliminate them altogether.

As for all of the other info, I would have to be a vet to diagnose any of these illnesses. And, too late for not de-worming them. I already put the Wazine in their water this afternoon.

My concern now is what I read about not ever being able to eat their eggs again after using the Wazine! Wish I could get an answer to that question.

Tomorrow is supposed to be sunny. I will check for external parasites. She has good color. She was fine yesterday morning.

 

[Kikiriki]

Well, Wazine is only for one type of worm, and not knowing if they have that worm, I would have not used it, but as you said, the deed is done.

So...
These three articles discuss it:


This one shows doses and does say it is not for use in laying hens

http://www.drugs.com/vet/wazine-17.html

This one discusses what it does in different animals, as well as giving a level in eggs that is tolerable for human consumption, but note that in humans it affects how the heart beats...if anyone in your family has any heart problems, it could really affect them, or if anyone is doing something that increases heart rate, an arrhythmia could cause passing out... Children and females are typically more sensitive to any medications. Very high doses did cause miscarriage in some animal (can't remember which it was) and cleft palates in offspring of pregnant rabbits, as well as one other birth defect in rabbits that I can't recall. One of the chemicals it produces as it breaks down in the body is a carcinogen, but the level present in the human body is thought to be too low to be a problem. (But consider that the comment does not consider the individual: are some people more susceptible than others, and how might it act in the presence of whatever other chemicals an individual might be exposed to?)

http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB...sidue_Limits_-_Report/2009/11/WC500015676.pdf

The last article states that Wazine's active chemical was still found in eggs 17 days after dosing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3765854

I am sorry if I lecture, and if I come off as hostile, I really do not mean to. I really get bothered and upset by people telling each other to use stuff because someone else said they did it and saw no affect. Companies really want to sell their products to as many customers as possible, so if a product is not stated to be be safe for something, one can be assured there is a very good reason!

Now it is too late for you because you can't undo that dose you gave. You are now going to have to throw away eggs for no less than 17 days, and certainly more, but you will have to decide when you are willing to put your family at risk, because you have no way to measure how much of the chemical remains in the eggs.

Next time you need help, please PM me: I will do research to find causes, I will do research to find SAFE treatments, or I will tell you straight up I can't help.

I am going to keep searching to see if I can find anything that states how many days until Wazine is cleared from eggs....there is a chance it does eventually clear, but that it was just too long for commercial layers to have to throw away eggs affecting their profit negatively.

 

[Kikiriki]

I have not found an answer beyond what I posted. I did find that Wazine is not effective against roundworm eggs, just the adults, so if the hens had roundworms, they will be reinfected as soon as the worm eggs hatch.

Two natural wormers, aside from pumpkin seed, below:


Worms
http://www.banglajol.info/index.php/BJVM/article/download/1521/1485
Pineapple leaves for 28 days...I have to search for method and dose. This article did not include that.
http://journal.ipb.ac.id/index.php/hemera/article/download/4842/3295
Green papaya latex

 

[Kikiriki]

Pineapple leaf

http://dasnetgroup.com/IJBR/data/2010/May/41-44.pdf
Instructions for prep and dose of pineapple leaves

From the paper:
Pineapple leaves (Ananus comosus) were collected from “Medicinal Plants garden” of Department of Pharmacology, Bangladesh Agricultural University, Mymensingh.

To obtain 10% aqueous extract, 20 gm of pineapple leaves were thoroughly washed in tap water. The leaves were cut into small pieces with the help of knife, there after the fleshy parts were mixed with the help of mortar and pastels. The extract was made up to 20 ml by adding distilled water and filtered it through a piece of clean silk cloth.

each chicken of this group was treated with Pineapple leaves extract @ 1 gm/kg body weight orally by dropper for consecutive seven days)

My comment:

The interesting result, here, was that even though they only used the extract for 7 days, by the 21st day, the chickens were parasite free.

 

[Mtn Laurel]

Take a bit of stool from several birds combined into one sample to your local vet to test for worms. The cost is minimal and they can tell you if the birds have worms and what types so you'll know how to treat what's going on. You can have them test for bacteria in the stool, too.

Even if the vet doesn't treat chickens - and most don't - they can perform a stool check for worms.

 

[Cheryl1948]

Yes Kikiriki, it is a shame that the deed is done. I gave them the water with the Wazine in it yesterday afternoon, but I took it up this morning. I really do not believe worms are the problem. The egg situation (soft egg, little egg, no-shell eggs) has been happening since I bought a bag of Purina Layena from the feed store where I shop and it looked old to me. (mostly dust and not crumbles). But, I fed it anyway thinking I might be wrong. Since I replaced it with Nutrena crumbles, they are really eating much better. I have also cut back on treats. I do give them greens every day, since they don't free range.

Also, it infuriates me that these feed stores don't employ people who are knowledgeable about their products. And, I have searched for an avian vet (chicken vet) and there just is not one in my area! Even though the water with the Wazine was down for less than a day, I guess I must throw the eggs out for a while. I threw the ones from today in the composter and stood there and cried.

Anyway, an update on Naomi, my little sickly one. I brought her up to the house and inspected her thoroughly. She does not have mites or fleas. She did however have some soft shell and yolk from an egg she attempted to lay stuck all over her butt and feathers. I bathed her in Epson salt warm water. She really liked that. But, she loved it when I took her into the bathroom and used the blow dryer on her. She just laid on her side and let me do whatever. Afterward, I massaged her crop for a while. It seemed a bit swollen and mushy (no smell from her beak) When I was finished she actually ate a little scrambled egg from my hand. (she has been drinking all along) I went down and got her a second time a little while ago and put her down in the yard. She walked around, ate some grass and bugs. When I took her back to the pen, she went over to the dish to eat some greens with the others. She does seem to be feeling better, but can't survive on the little bit she is eating. Should I use a syringe I have to force feed her some mushy feed?

Other than checking on my bee hives, I have been chicken nurse all day. One of my Wyandottes had a prolapse (twice) a couple of months ago and I treated her and she is still with us, so I hope Naomi makes it.

Thank you for your responses. I really do appreciate people out there that care.

 

[Kikiriki]

Can you bake a loaf of simple bread? The stuff from the store is full of all kinds of stuff that they use because they don't want to take the time to let it rise naturally...dough conditioners....

If you can't bake, just use whatever you have. Mix plain yogurt with a bit of red pepper, black pepper, turmeric, and crushed garlic. Soak the bread in it, and she will eat it! You can also try a scrambled egg. Since you have bees, if you can add bee propolis, do it!

Those are my "go to" foods, and they have helped almost all the chickens whenever they seem off...

The one it didn't help, I think had a naturally poor compromised immune system. (Apparently not too unusual in females of her type). She was the only one who got sick, and nothing helped. Actually, losing her was what inspired me to start researching alternative treatments.

I also had problems with Layena!



Had to switch off it and the layers are doing MUCH better! Nice hard shells, no problems...I went to flock raiser to up the protein, and mix it with whole wheat and oats and wild bird mix. My girls to to roam for bugs, of which we have a'plenty in FL! I give them hulled unsalted sunflower seeds for treats.

 

[Cheryl1948]

Will copy that bread recipe. I would turn my nose up at all of that red pepper, turmeric, etc. lol And, I do have plenty of propolis I can harvest from the hives. Got some today as a matter of fact.

I brought Naomi back up to the house around 6 pm. I mixed some Nutrena feed in water to make it mushy and she ate a pretty good bit. She was talking again, too. She hadn't made a sound for two days. And, she kept going to the back door. She didn't want to stay. That is more movement than I have seen from her that's for sure. I will keep praying she improves. I go down to the coop at 6:30 each morning to clean, so will see how she is doing and bring her up again to feed her the watered down feed.

Will keep you posted. Thanks again.