Debate on food, free range and egg quality...

[NatJ]

The point is they may not be getting the right quantity of amino acids, hence deficient. It doesn't mean they drop dead.
If a chicken is deficient in protein for example it doesn't mean they don't get any. It can equally mean they don't get enough to achieve their full growth potential for example.

In theory at least a chicken can eat an amnio acid deficient diet and still provide all the amino acids required to make a complete protein.

OK, you have me confused here.

I thought you were saying a chicken could eat a diet that DOES NOT PROVIDE the right amount of amino acids, and can still show NO SIGNS of deficiency.

Now you are saying they can show signs of deficiency (like not achieving full growth potential). Yes, I agree that is deficient.

Are you really just stating that a chicken can stay alive (=not dead) on a diet that does not provide enough amino acids for it to reach it's full potential? I agree, but I did not think that anyone else was disagreeing with that point. I thought the disagreement was about what it takes to have the chicken reach its full potential, not just stay alive.

 

[Perris]

Would you expect that the jungle fowl got their Methionine / Lysine from eating small animals? Perhaps a key to successful foraging would be an abundance of small animals and birds able to get them. (still problematic for most people/locations)

live mealworms have them aplenty. The soil (if it is healthy and not dead) has similar critters wriggling around in it which chickens scratching find and eat. I don't know if any scientist has yet collected and analysed their nutrient profile, but mealworms have. They vary depending on what they've been fed (of course). Grow a mealworm farm, feed them well, and you'll have well fed chickens. Without chemicals or a lab.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

You make such a big deal out of this (here and elsewhere). A tin of sardines has them in spades.

and salt! Sadly, much more than a chicken needs, typically. Also, calcium. and non phytate phosphorus.

Fish meal is a popular animal protein source in many commercial feeds too, in large part because of the high Met and Lys levels it provides.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

SO SO much truth here.

There is no "one right way", or everyone woud be doing it (except that one guy, because there's always that one guy...) There are hundreds, thousands, of wrong ways.

I don't recommend the ways I use - they are simply inapplicable to most - but I'm happy to explain why I've chosen the ways that I have, the trade offs I understand myself to be making, and I post the results of my efforts as possibly useful anecdotes to others.

Yes, I big on *understanding* poultry nutrition. So that people can consider their needs from their chickens in their situation and make intelligent choices about how to feed, what to feed. The same with understanding our birds (in terms of reasonable expectations of needs and performance) so we have references against which to compare our own bird's condition and outputs. Again, so intelligent choices can be made - how many hens do you need? how much space? How many roosters (if any)? How often do you have to take for meat, or replace as they "age out"? Playing the averages.

Nor do I imagine things to be somehow set in stone. I'm improving my pasture (for lack of better term) as my understanding grows and weaknesses are identified in the way my chickens perform on it (or in the feed I buy for them). I'm improving my chickens too, selecting for those which do best on my lands, under my management conditions, based on my needs for eggs and meat, and the cratures they are in competiton with (ducks, rabbits, goats) or risk predation by (owls, hawks, eagles, trash panda).

Some here on BYC are of the belief "I'm doing it, everyone can (or should) do it" - while often ignoring the very personal circumstances that make their flock desirable or successful (however they define success). I'm of the belief that you probably shouldn't (or can't) do it the way I do, but there are the things we share in common you can and probably should consider as you mull it over for yourself. Intelligent choices, based on reasonable expectations.

If there is any article of faith for me, its that things are complicated, there are always trade-offs, and that physics (and biology) are uncaring. Others have their own beliefs, to which they cling with equal fervor.

/edit and I have internet back, but my spelling still sucks. I'm not fixing it.

I agree that what is possible depends on what’s available and practical for a keeper’s circumstances. What I push back against is the deeply ingrained notion that it “can’t” be done in the manner I advocate. Yes it can be done and done well. It depends on whether a person sees the need to do it that way or not.

If I didn’t live in habitat that that could support a free-range, self-sustaining, flock, I would move to a place that could. Because self-sustaining livestock is a priority for me. I do the same thing with my cows and the fish in my ponds. The only livestock I keep that depends on me feeding them daily are my dogs. And then I believe I could sustain them on table scraps, dairy, eggs, and meat scraps from processing livestock and game.

I also garden heirloom and raise what crops I can based only on how I can sustain them from nutrients produced by the farm.

If the day never comes when I need the knowledge and the established rugged crops and livestock, I still had fun.

 

[NatJ]

You make such a big deal out of this (here and elsewhere). A tin of sardines has them in spades.

I think the problem is when people try to make plant-only chicken foods. (That applies to a large number of the commercially-produced chicken foods, and to a large number of the do-it-yourself chicken food recipes that people like to share on the internet.)

 

[Krugerrand]

Imma be honest - I only got about halfway through this thread. So if what I'm about to suggest has been mentioned, I apologize.

I am in a similar situation, though I am less concerned about healthy eggs and more concerned with giving my chickens and ducks the best life I can.

I have 22 birds in about 900 sq ft between the covered run and their fenced yard. There's ZERO grass in there now that it's summer during this #@#%&! drought. I've decided to build grazing boxes to supplement their regular diet of all flock pellets & oyster shell. That way, my birds will benefit from fresh greens and predator protection, and I'll benefit by saving some money on feed and from seeing greenery in that wasteland of a run again.

I'm going to make something similar to these here:
https://www.attainable-sustainable.net/diy-grazing-boxes/#:~:text=What are grazing boxes?,peck at the fresh buffet.

Do you know what you will plant in your grazing box?

 

[Aunt Angus]

I feel you.
We would not have spent all the money time and effort into building the coop and run if not for an expectation of eggs and potentially meat if needed. However, we also do not want to raise birds that are prone to disease and live unhealthy lives, giving us unhealthy eggs. I think we can design an environment that can give them good living and healthier eggs than we would find in the store.
If there was a food that met all the needs and did not contain debatably unhealthy ingredients (and did not cost a fortune) We would just do that. So we plan to give them the healthiest stuff available in the local farm feed store and supplement with natrually occuring bugs and greens... Trying to strike a happy medium.
How

Same here, though my birds are pets first, producers second (and I am a vegetarian, so no eating any of my flock).

We moved to this little farm from suburbia a few years ago, and I brought my birds with me. You'd think it'd be a better environment, but I find it much harder to keep a flock out here because of the predators, which are exponentially more abundant. I'm finding ways to make it work. Rotating potted broad-leaf and fruits/veggie plants has helped. These grazing boxes are my next adaptation. I'll also be adding "hardier" shrubs to the run when conditions permit. It's just been kind of.... depressing.

I'mgerting caught up and following to see what you find out.

 

[Perris]

I would think that logs with bark will add different things than no bark...
I have a pile of bark from chopping wood, would that be good to throw into the coop? Mostly ash I think.
Maybe turning and moving logs around periodically in a run might be good to reveal some bugs and such for the chickens.
I am sure that they have their favorites. As the garden matures, they will be getting more scraps from the tomatoes and such...
When I find grubs, I try to bring them to the chicks... They love it when I bring mulberries.

Yes. I leave piles of wood of different species and sizes dotted around the garden. They encourage and support a number of different food webs, which the chickens pick over episodically. You may even gets toads under big ones.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

live mealworms have them aplenty. The soil (if it is healthy and not dead) has similar critters wriggling around in it which chickens scratching find and eat. I don't know if any scientist has yet collected and analysed their nutrient profile, but mealworms have. They vary depending on what they've been fed (of course). Grow a mealworm farm, feed them well, and you'll have well fed chickens. Without chemicals or a lab.

Sure they have - I've read some of the studies. Including studies on rates of reproduction, quantities of soil needed for particular densities of particular species of worms so you can calculate how much dirt with how many worms you need to produce a stable population from which you can extract "X" amount by weight of live worms daily to provide your chicken's diet.

Sadly, also high fat.
Would you like the math? I believe I left it in a post last month. If nothing else, I believe I linked one of the studies and could find it rapidly.

/edit Do you know the earthworm density of your soil? Grabbed a representative sample of dirt, sieved thru for earthworms? Then dried and weighed the soil? Did some quick math?

Do you assume its the same for everyone?

I have sandy clay/clay-y sands typical of parts of this are of FL, some GA, some Southern Alabama. For reasons of needing to bury electrical lines, I hand dug a trench 3' deep, 175' long, and about 9" wide thru my soils - soils substantially the same as those I use for my pasture. Care to guess how many earthworms I found? Hint: you have more fingers than I have earthworms.

/further edit this is part of why I am against assuming that turning birds loose will somehow ensure a balanced diet. Maybe you soils don't support significant earthworm populations (as mine). Perhaps you can't set aside 1,000 pounds of loose moist soil (aprox 1/2 cu yd or a 3' x 8' raised bed 6" deep, honestly not much) and keep it earthworm productive year round - I have several larger beds, with dirt I brought in, keeping them from compacting is a lot of work

Or perhaps your soils do.

I am NOT suggesting that earthworms or BSFL larvae or whatever are your only options. Nor am I suggesting those things don't exist. What I *AM* suggesting is that you know your grounds, and adjust accordingly.

 

[3KillerBs]

It seems from what I've read on these forums a six year old is doing well.

I would strongly suspect that a number of the "I'll NEVER cull a bird!" pet chickens are over-fed fatty treats and die early from the effects of that diet.

Production-oriented people probably cull at the first or second molt because of the drop-off in laying.

Show breeders would be culling and moving on to ever-improving birds (not sure if their cycle would be as fast as the production people since a certain level of maturity is necessary to express the birds' full potential).

So probably not a lot of people keeping their dual-purpose flocks on a healthy diet until natural death from age-related causes?

However, I can't prove these speculations or even think of a way they could be adequately tested. *shrug*

You make such a big deal out of this (here and elsewhere). A tin of sardines has them in spades.

Looking at the online shopping catalog for the grocery store I work at, you can get 18.75oz of sardines in water, 4 tins, for $5.

Before the current surge in prices -- as recently as May -- I could get 50# of Nutrina all-flock for under $20 and that would last my flock of 23 adults and some random juveniles approximately a week.

How much would I have to spend on sardines each week for that flock to supplement a deficient diet? And would my eggs taste fishy?