Deep Litter Method.....

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Yes, DE

What is the reason to want to use anything else? If you want a (possible) preventative, use DE in sensible ways; if you develop an actual *problem*, either treat the birds/roosts/etc directly with DE or use sevin or rotenone dust. I'm not getting why anything else is wanted?

Pat

 

[tail_feather]

Hey Pat, I have never used DE, and from what I had gathered was that it was just an odor/wetness/partial pesticide preventative. The reason I was asking if there was anything else to put in for a pesticide preventative, was that I thought it could be used more like a type of "insurance" policy against mites/lice. It would definately be an easy application to sprinkle it on the floor and let them dust themselves with it. Knowing me I probably miss read something about DE. So, is it a total pesticide preventative as well?? All my eggs are still in the bator (hatching this weekend) or being shipped. I am just gathering all the info I can to make the absolute best environment for my birds.

Thanks for the info Pat!! Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated as well.

 

[patandchickens]

DE is possibly/probably/maybe a partial defense against the beginnings of a mite or lice problem.

There is NOTHING REALLY SAFE, in my opinion, to use in hopes of getting full prevention with no possibilities of infestation. Things that are that bad for six or eight-legged critters are not great for 24/7 longterm exposure by *two*-legged critters either. (This is not airy-fairy chemicalphobic theory, this is in relation to what's known about hte toxicology of Sevin and rotenone specifically.)

So there is no such thing as a magic perfect mite/lice preventative.

But mites and lice are so easy to treat if/when a problem *does* develop (assuming you don't let it get way away from you), why even worry about it? Practise good animal husbandry and you will be FINE.

The "absolute best environment for your birds" that you say you're looking for has a lot more to do with good coop design, good hygeine, and regular close attention to the birds' health (including checking them periodically for any signs of parasites) than with strewing insecticides around just on the offchance, you know?

JMHO, good luck, have fun,

Pat

 

[tail_feather]

Thanks Pat!!! That was very helpful!

 

[kycklingmamma]

I guess I am a double idiot. I am using the deeplitter method on wood floor ontop of concrete floor..wow.
I decided to raise the floor because of huge downpours sometimes made my coop floor a pool. I now have the floors raised and have the deeplitter method on top. It works great and the coop smells so nice. I too use DE to make sure to keep bugs in line. I realize we might not get them to stay away all the way, but why make it easy on them, the bugs that is.

 

[WoodlandWoman]

I've used DE only, to successfully treat mites. I normally focus on providing adequate dust baths for the chickens. This prevents any mites they pick up while free ranging during the warmer months, from turning into an outbreak. It rains a lot here, so the chickens always have at least one dust bath that is under cover, to stay dry. They can't dust bathe in mud. Dust baths can contain any combination of dirt, sand, peat moss, plain wood ash, a little DE or a little Sevin dust. I personally haven't used Sevin dust in many years. The eggs contain pesticide residue for some time after treatment, according to studies that have been done. I don't have any problems I can't control without it.

This takes care of everyone here, except broodies. Broodies can have more of a problem with dust mites, because they aren't dust bathing and any stray mite on them multiplies in a hurry. They need to be manually dusted if they develop a problem, because they won't do it themselves. We use DE for this, as well as dusting the nesting area. Roosters are not as good as the hens at dust bathing, either, so I would also keep an eye on them during mite season, too.

Some people do use DE to avoid using as much litter in the coop. My deep litter coops have not been stinky when I shoveled them out. If that happens, I think that's a sign that the litter balance was off in those lower levels/layers. Normally, smelling ammonia in a coop is a sign of too much poop and not enough litter, unless the coop has some other problem, like a water leak. Under normal circumstances, smelling ammonia is a signal that you should add more litter.

It takes time to learn to manage the litter in a particular coop. It's kind of like managing a compost bin in the garden. You balance the moisture content, the wet/high nitrogen greens(or chicken poop) and the dry/high carbon browns(or wood shavings) to get a nice functional blend. If it's too wet, it smells. If it's too dry, it doesn't compost and it's too dusty. If it's just right, it's wonderful!

Managing coop litter isn't rocket science, but like baking bread or sawing a straight cut, a little practice really teaches you a lot.

 

[glitch]

Quote:
But it sounds to me like it's a different process on dirt vs. on a solid floor. Like you get the composting on dirt but not on other floors. I wonder if we should be differentiating between the two.

My bolding....

ddawn,

Good point about the differentiating about the DLM vs. type of floor.

The funny thing for me learning about the deep litter method here on BYC was the fact that I was doing it 20+ years ago (and didn't even know it at the time), when I got my first mixed flock of older standard chickens. The existing coop on the property had a dirt floor and I just piled it thick with hay (as I didn't have a home computer) and was going by my ex-husbands farming family members' help.

I got back into chickens (Bantams this time) in 2007, so our coops are smaller and have wood floors covered with linoleum (for ease of cleaning).

The major difference that I've noticed between wood/linoleum floors and dirt floors with the DLM is that the litter (shavings/straw or hay) doesn't break down and compost itself with the wood/linoleum like it did on the dirt floor. I just started adding some green materials aka lemon balm (which is taking over my flower beds) to the litter mix (mostly pine shavings but also dried leaves) just to see if I can get any "composting" happening on the linoleum covered floor. If nothing else, the coop smells really nice since adding the lemon balm "weedings". Aromatherapy for chickens???

Dawn

Any chance you DLM folks could post pictures of your litter?
I'm wondering what it's suppose to look like.

 

[nothing clever]

I am thinking about using DLM, when I get started this spring. Can I use something besides pine shavings? Seems expensive to have to buy pine shavings. What other options do I have? Hardwood chips? Dried cut grass? Straw? And how much DE does it take? Just a sprinkle every so often? Will I find DE at my local feed store? If not where do you order it?
Thanks,
Karen

 

[Amiga]

For what it's worth, from a bird lover who has studied composting, may I mention something about ammonia smell? When we were taught troubleshooting the compost pile (often these contain chicken litter), the smell of ammonia means that the pH is somewhere around 8 or above. It is a problem for composters because it means you are losing nitrogen into the air (ammonia is NH4).

I am offering this composting tidbit in case anyone was curious. Ammonia is produced in high pH conditions during composting. I am wondering if people who have a slightly lower pH bedding (first thing I think of is pine needles) might have less ammonia occurrence, all other things being equal.

Something related to whether or not the DLM is composting has to do with moisture, also. It is a balancing act, really. You want the litter to be dry for the sake of the birds' health. But if organic materials (feces, bedding, etc.) are too dry, composting is much slower or non-occurring. Perhaps those who have a little more moisture near the bottom of the litter (and sometimes dirt floors conduct a bit more moisture up into the litter) get more composting action in the lower layers.

Another is the carbon to nitrogen ratio (bedding to feces). For composting, a good ratio is about 25 or 30 to 1. The more bedding beyond a certain point, the slower the composting. Yet another is air - too little air can turn compost stinky because it starts to ferment.

Again, I am offering these compost tidbits as a way to understand what is and is not going on in DLM. Very slow composting is the goal, I think, since it releases a little heat. But as we all know, the birds need dry clean material to settle into, and that is a priority.

Anyone who has noticed some relationship between these things and how their DLM is working please share! I will be getting ducks again after a very long hiatus, and plan to use DLM next winter for them, in a shelter with vinyl sheet flooring over plywood.

Happy DLM!

 

[Mac in Wisco]

Amiga, You're correct. Higher pH creates more ammonia in litter. Commercial growers use acidic litter treatments that lower the pH to lower ammonia emissions. Pine needles aren't very absorbent though. The best litter is going to be a high carbon litter that is also absorbent, like sawdust and pine shavings. Litter materials that are high in nitrogen, like hay, are also going to add to ammonia levels.

A popular deodorant for manure is lime, yet lime raises the pH and can increase ammonia. Any benefits from treating manure with lime is from it desiccating the manure and drying it out. U.S. organic standards do not allow manure to be treated with lime. I assume that is because it increases nitrogen loss (through ammonia generation) and proper manure and nutrient management is a staple of organic farming.

The deep litter method as described in many texts and as it is applied by the poultry industry is much different from what many people talk of here on BYC. Deep bedding is not deep litter, per se. Many here have the idea that if they throw in a foot of bedding and let the birds stir in some manure and keep it really dry so that there is no ammonia whatsoever, that is deep litter. Not really, that's just diluting the manure with a lot of bedding.

A good portion of a true deep litter is manure. The manure gets broken up into something that looks like a loose soil. If maintained at appropriate moisture levels the litter generates a small amount of ammonia and develops antibacterial qualities. The decomposition also liberates vitamin B12 from the manure which is available to the birds. Litter that is too dry creates dusty conditions that are hazardous to the birds' health. Too wet and the litter cakes over, becomes non-absorbent, traps moisture in the bottom layers and creates large amount of ammonia.

The appropriate moisture level supports a low level decomposition, but it's more of a fermentation rather than composting. While this decomposition does generate a low level heat, if it gets to the point that it is hot composting it generates large amounts of ammonia, not necessarily due to lack of carbon in the litter, but due to a lack of homogenization in the bird droppings themselves. Since bird feces are coated in high nitrogen urea, with any added moisture the potent urea combine with the feces in a less than optimum mix for good decomposition and generates large amounts of ammonia. Many times ammonia generation can be controlled somewhat in horse stables or cattle barns by segregating the urine from the manure. The nature of bird droppings doesn't allow this.