Dengaurd

[Wednesday]

I have read there is no withdrawal period for this antibiotic on this forum, however that is not what the package insert for swine says. As a pharmaceutical rep, I am curious as to why some members feel there is no withdrawal period in egg laying hens. Anyone who can share data that runs contrary to the data supplied to the FDA supplied information would be much appreciated. I administered this to my flock today and would hate to take an unnecessary risk with egg consumption for my family. I also found that using one gallon of water with two tablespoons of Dengaurd for treatment of symptoms was ideal with 1/3 to 1/2 cup of honey mixed in. It made it palatable for the hens to drink.

Here is the package insert information:


A withdrawal period of 7 days has been assigned for the 10.5 mg/lb dose of the DENAGARD

(tiamulin) liquid concentrate formulation, based on the results of a residue depletion study done with the liquid concentrate at that dose. This withdrawal time is the same as is approved for the 10.5 mg/lb dose of the DENAGARD

(tiamulin) soluble powder formulation. The fact that the two formulations have the same withdrawal time at the 10.5 mg/lb dose indicates that the depletion characteristics of the two formulations are essentially the same. There is no reason to believe that this would not also be true at the 3.5 mg/lb dose. Therefore, the 3-day withdrawal time assigned for the 3.5 mg/lb dose of the soluble powder has also been assigned to the 3.5 mg/lb dose of the liquid concentrate.

 

[dawg53]

http://www.denagard.com/vet-poultry/safety/en/withdrawal.shtml

 

[MrsBachbach]

I don't understand why they think that either. There is no withdrawal in Europe because the drug is not used for humans Europe!
http://www.denagard.com/vet-poultry/safety/en/nohumanuse.shtml That may not be the case in the US. It is not approved for poultry use in the US to my knowledge. If it was, it would likely say not to use in chickens producing eggs for human consumption.
It only makes sense that the drug is in the egg because why else would the manufacturer say to administer it to breeder flocks (for MG) for two to three days, then collect the eggs for hatching for the next two weeks(now nine days per their site). That tells me the drug is in the eggs and I would personally withhold eggs for at least that time period. Here it is, it says good egg penetration: http://www.denagard.com/vet-poultry/firstchoice/en/withdrawalteaser.shtml
So, the drug is in the egg and the no withdrawal period applies to the EU only.

 

[mithious]

Hmmm interesting...glad to have the info, thanks Wednesday

! I do know that Europe is more lax than the US when it comes to medical treatments and medications...maybe that is why??? Just an educated guess

 

[mithious]

Oh also, just thought of this, we do have lots of members from across the pond, maybe people are getting confused? and not realizing their are different people, in different countries and different laws regarding it??? I have found people misreading or not reading what I have said in it's entirety.

 

[dawg53]

I do know that Europe is more lax than the US when it comes to medical treatments and medications...maybe that is why??? Just an educated guess

Perhaps. Most likely it's because the FDA is behind the times, snails-pace approving anything with all the oversight committees, government regulations etc etc etc...(How many times have we heard on 60 Minutes, NBC Dateline about lifesaving drugs awaiting approval by the FDA?)
Denagard IS sold in the U.S., from QC Supply. I've used it...I'm still here typing.
Try getting poultry antibiotics or wormers in Europe without having to get a prescription. There might be exceptions, but few and far between.
You can walk into any feedstore or order online here in the U.S. and purchase just about any antibiotic or wormer as you see fit for poultry.

 

[Wednesday]

Hmmm interesting...glad to have the info, thanks Wednesday

! I do know that Europe is more lax than the US when it comes to medical treatments and medications...maybe that is why??? Just an educated guess

Thanks for the warm welcome! I have worked for a huge pharma company for a very long time with a big animal health division. We have had so many promising products that were very close to approval be shut down by the FDA and never made it to market. It really is amazing to me that anything new gets approved in the U.S.A. I guess I am just overly careful because I still have young children at home. I know many people don't follow a withdrawl period for Corid either when treating their flock. However, Canadians do not suggest giving it to egg laying hens and the don't slaughter animals for 5-7 days after treatment. There are no well controlled US studies that the company could tell me about in the poultry model. Since it is an off label usage, you don't know what the biomagnification could be like in the human model.

http://www.inspection.gc.ca/animals...ts/mib/mib-27/eng/1330981534273/1330981620537

Without well controlled studies to show me what the effects are in the animal model, I wonder what kind of long term effects drugs like Denagard and Corid might be having on your body if you are using them monthly to control common poultry ailments and consuming the eggs long term. Food for thought if nothing else.

 

[dawg53]

Thanks for the warm welcome! I have worked for a huge pharma company for a very long time with a big animal health division. We have had so many promising products that were very close to approval be shut down by the FDA and never made it to market.

Without well controlled studies to show me what the effects are in the animal model, I wonder what kind of long term effects drugs like Denagard and Corid might be having on your body if you are using them monthly to control common poultry ailments and consuming the eggs long term. Food for thought if nothing else.

Why dont you convince your pharmaceutical company's big animal health division to convince the FDA to conduct well controlled studies and show ALL of us what effects there are on the animal model, to include the two products you mentioned...and the effects of long term studies on lab rats. Then we'll know for sure.
Have you considered testing your drinking water whether it's city water or well water? I'm sure there are some types of metals, biologics that may eventually have an adverse effect on the human body...store bought food as well...with all the chemicals/enhancers added to it. Food for thought.
There are all kinds of products that people give their chickens, not just the ones you mentioned. The same is true for humans. The long term effects with minute residue remains to be seen, most likely negligible via excretions.

 

[Wednesday]

Why dont you convince your pharmaceutical company's big animal health division to convince the FDA to conduct well controlled studies and show ALL of us what effects there are on the animal model, to include the two products you mentioned...and the effects of long term studies on lab rats. Then we'll know for sure.
Have you considered testing your drinking water whether it's city water or well water? I'm sure there are some types of metals, biologics that may eventually have an adverse effect on the human body...store bought food as well...with all the chemicals/enhancers added to it. Food for thought.
There are all kinds of products that people give their chickens, not just the ones you mentioned. The same is true for humans. The long term effects with minute residue remains to be seen, most likely negligible via excretions.

Whats's your issue with asking a question that stimulates honest discussion? You have advocated many times on these forums no withdrawl period for either drug and I think that deserves to be challenged based on the lack of data in the US. I think we both know unless there is lots of profit at stake, pharma companies tend to follow a business model that makes for future profits rather than testing old drugs. I'm not some crazy person who wants everything tested before I consume it, however we get our well testing following county guidelines. If your argument is that you eat YOUR eggs and you are still here, that's a pretty small sample size and people deserve to make their own choices based on evidence. Not just your opinion. Rather than make a newcomer to the forum feel unwelcome with your response, you could have also entertained that some people have the choice to use common sense and consider discarding their eggs when treating their chickens with a medication when unsure what the effects are based on a lack of data. Why do other antibiotics have a withdrawl period? Is Dengaurd so much different? Please enlighten ALL of us. People like myself come here looking for answers. not snarky responses and aggravation.

 

[dawg53]

Quote: I gave you an honest stimulating discussion from an experienced chicken keeper. There are many others here that have used those products without my advice prior to me even joining this site. Not my opinion, just fact from other chicken owners, and they are still here as well. OJT experience with chickens is the best teacher. Anyone can take my advice, or flush it. Some people have to learn the hard way, then they learn.
Nowhere have I stated an unwelcome response to a newbie such as you nor anyone else, just a stimulating conversation. If you own chickens and have a problem with them, I'll be glad to help you as best as I can, as I have with many others.
See post #2 for denagard withdrawal periods. Good luck.