destruction and disposal orders HELP

[Sydney Acres]

Quote:

yes

that is true i have always been very careful after reading that same information years ago and was careful not to feed my 40 year old parrot any thing i was eating for that same reason, that birds are not resistant to the numerous bacteria in human saliva. exactly

We've had various birds over the past 68 yrs - Chickens, Ducks, Geese, Blue-fronted Amazon Parrot, American and English Budgerigars, and Cockatiels, and it has been habit for us to wash before and after handling any bird or their feed, and never offered leftovers that had been eaten previously by humans (my farm Mom wouldn't even toss melon rinds eaten by humans to the flocks but only served the birds pre-cut rinds). People kiss their budgies and allow the little birds to peck in their mouth or teeth and as cute as that is to see in a video it is the worst for the health of the birds. We hate to imagine it but we humans are germ-y and domesticated birds/pets are prone to infections from us.

Quote: I'm sorry Sylvester017, I'm going to ask you to dig up that research. Not someone's opinion, not the hundreds of well-written pseudoauthoritative internet bird advice sites or Yahoo answers or any of those types of sources that are just regenerators of urban legends, not what your family has done for generations because it's worked for you, but some actual scientific evidence that this is true IN HEALTHY ADULT BIRDS. I'd settle for even just one article documenting an appropriately conducted, double blind study (if it includes raw data) done IN HEALTHY ADULT BIRDS of any species.

Because I just flat out don't believe it!

Now, I pride myself in having both an open mind and a willingness to admit when I've made a mistake, so I will apologize profusely and publicly if I am wrong here. But this is completely counter to common sense. It is completely counter to my long experience with multiple species of birds. It is completely counter to the advice of the multiple avian veterinarians I have known over the years (yes, board certified in avian medicine and/or poultry medicine, many of whom have written the major textbooks used today) who have recommended in some circumstances sharing a meal with a bird who is strongly bonded to you to stimulate social feeding behavior when the bird isn't eating well. There is no mention of it in any of the major avian or poultry medicine textbooks that I checked, including Avian Medicine: Principles and Application by Ritchie, Harrison and Harrison; Diseases of Poultry by Swain and Glisson; Backyard Poultry Medicine and Surgery, A Guide for Veterinary Practioners by Greenacre and Morishita; Clinical Veterinary Advisor, Birds and Exotic Pets by Mayer and Donnelly; or Current Therapy in Avian Medicine and Surgery by Speer. And quite frankly, if this were true I'm sure that at least one of the avian vets at UGA (Branson Ritchie, Cheryl Greenacre, Heather Wilson, Jennifer Graham) would have said something to me when I was visiting my sweet rooster (Emerald) after his surgery and I was sharing my lunch with him to try to get him to eat, even pre-chewing a piece of raw carrot before spitting it out into my hand to offer him, as we were all in the same room talking about his case. (This was in 2000-2001 when they were all on faculty, or doing their residency or internship in the same place at the same time.)

I suspect this is a case of misinterpretation and misapplication of medical knowledge. Here is one of the better "explanations" of why human saliva is supposed to be toxic to birds, taken from this site: http://www.birdtricks.com/blog/saliva-is-dangerous-for-parrots/.

"Cats, dogs gerbils, humans…all mammals… carry a type of bacteria in their bodies that is referred to as “gram negative” bacteria. It is present in our body fluids and we are equipped to deal with it in normal amounts. Birds, however, do not carry gram negative bacteria in their bodies and are not prepared to battle it.
Saliva is the most common way to transmit gram negative bacteria to parrots (who, hopefully, do not have access to any other body fluids from ourselves or our pets.) This means we should be careful when we kiss our birds and we should never let them eat from our mouths or our utensils"

You read something like that and it sounds like a good explanation so you want to follow that advise. Except that it's not true. Not at all. Bacteria are classified in many different ways, and one of those ways is to determine if it is gram negative or gram positive. It requires nothing more than a special stain that can be done in a little less than 5 minutes by a skilled technician. Both gram positive and gram negative bacteria can cause infection, but the gram negative infections tend to be more severe. When a vet evaluates the bacteria in a bird's mouth, or in a bird's poop, one of the things that will be evaluated is the percentage of gram negative bacteria compared to gram positive bacteria. It is normal, yes normal, for a healthy bird to have up to 5% gram negative bacteria in its mouth and intestinal system, and some will keep their balance at up to 10% without issues. It is also normal for most healthy people to have about the same amount. The specific species of bacteria may be different in different hosts, but the balance of gram positive to gram negative is similar. When something happens to bring the numbers out of balance and the gram negative bacteria are no longer held at bay, then there is a "bacterial overgrowth," which can make someone quite sick, or even be fatal if not controlled. Not because a healthy bird got a little extra dose of gram negative bacteria from its human lunchmate, as birds and humans and every other animal picks up gram negative bacteria in unsterilized food every day (as well as numerous other places -- don't do culture swabs on your phones, doorknobs, keyboards, dish drainers, faucets, dishwashers, etc if you get anxious about these types of things, because the results would be terrifying if we didn't have a healthy immune system). Bacterial overgrowth occurs either when you eat something severely contaminated (such as in some forms of food poisoning) or when there is something wrong with the animal itself, and it is no longer able to maintain a strong army of desirable, protective, gram positive bacteria. That's when the undesirable gram negative bacteria get a chance to flourish and create illness. This is very common in birds with poor diets, not because of sharing food with humans, but because of vitamin A deficiency. Vitamin A deficiency prevents the surface of the mouth and intestinal lining from forming an effective surface barrier, and normal tissue is required to support the normal bacterial balance. This is a situation where the poor diet created an unhealthy bird, without normal defenses, but would probably look healthy to its owner for months to years until it got sick, which the owner would perceive as a sudden illness and look for a recent cause instead of a chronic underlying illness. To quote Dr. Ritchie's textbook, "The primary barriers that any animal has in preventing pathogen access to the body are the skin and the mucosal linings of the intestinal, respiratory, urinary and reproductive tracts. In the normal host, this is achieved by establishing environments that are suitable exclusively for the best-adapted microorganisms with a low pathogenicity or none at all, which effectively inhibit colonization by other, less well adapted and frequently more pathogenic organisms." So if a little human saliva is going to trigger an illness in an adult bird, that bird was already sick to begin with, but the owner didn't recognize it.

The exception to this would be in an infant which hasn't had time to develop its full gram positive protective army yet, which can take 1-3 weeks depending on management style and species. That is why brooder hygiene is so vital to keeping babies alive, and why tube feeding equipment needs to be sterilized in hand feed parrots. It takes time for a chick to acquire the right type of bacteria if it doesn't get it from a healthy broody. If you carefully watch chicks, and foals, and most other animals when raised by their mother, you will see them picking at and eating the mother's manure during the first week or so. It sounds gross to us fussy humans, but it's the quickest way for a baby to acquire high levels of desirable bacteria to "seed" its intestinal system. In the real world, without the hygiene of the artificial brooder, it's a matter of survival -- a race to get lots of the protective stuff into you before you get too much of the bad stuff, and eating healthy poo is the surest way to do that immediately. So while I prefer broody hens and rarely use artificial brooding any more, when I do set up my brooder I bring a small amount of fresh poop in twice daily from my healthiest, most vigorous adult birds to lightly sprinkle around the brooder. The chicks or poults pick at it for the first week or so, and they thrive with their newly operational defenses. People say that the gut is one of your most important immune organs. I wouldn't trade healthy bone marrow for it, but I do agree that the defense it provides is essential to survival.


Johnskoi, I'm so sorry -- I didn't mean to hijack your thread. Super amazing, OMG, CONGRATULATIONS on having your quarantine finally done. It's over!!! Can't imagine what a huge weight that is off your shoulders. Hope you can finally get some peaceful sleep, knowing that there won't be some last minute snafu where the nightmare starts all over again. Time to relax and enjoy those beautiful birds.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Congrats on the clean flock John!

I've really enjoyed following this thread, It's been very informative and eye opening. And I'm glad it had such a good outcome.

Question: I'm sure it's been mentioned, but I don't remember, if not the DOA, what agency handles the AI outbreak?

It's the USDA on the federal level, and the state DOA on the state level, +/- a few county health dept people would probably be involved in some areas, depending on their management.

 

[mymilliefleur]

It's the USDA on the federal level, and the state DOA on the state level, +/- a few county health dept people would probably be involved in some areas, depending on their management.

Ok, thanks.

'Nother question, I heard some where that it is now illegal to transport birds over the state line without a health certificate. Is that just in certain areas, or nation wide?

 

[MysteriaSdrassa]

Ok, thanks.

'Nother question, I heard some where that it is now illegal to transport birds over the state line without a health certificate. Is that just in certain areas, or nation wide?

Depends on the state.. Some have always had the requirement and some have recently added it. Some prohibit birds and eggs.. Some allow eggs without a certificate and some states only require the shipper be NPIP certified.. I have a link somewhere.. I'll post it here later

 

[Sydney Acres]

Quote:
Most states (not all) have always had some kind of requirement for importation. When I moved from GA to WA in 2001, I contacted the state vet of every state that I was going to drive through to find out what the requirements were, and all but one had something on the books. Most only wanted a pullorum test, and a few wanted a health certificate. One wanted something else, can't remember exactly what. Every state vet I spoke to was somewhat surprised and appreciative to get my call, as most people just drive through with their birds without a second thought. Commercial hatcheries probably need specific permits/certifications to import into each state, and the USPS may be required to get certain certification from the hatchery in order to accept the shipment.. But it's basically whatever each individual state wants to do. However, enforcement takes manpower, and most states don't have the budget to hire the necessary personnel to enforce the laws on the books. With AI starting to spread, enforcement of movement restrictions may soon take on a higher priority, though.

 

[johnskoi]

Just read most this thread, mostly John's posts.
Admire your integrity John, Kudos.

Do you think it was the newswoman contacting the DoA that changed your fate from depopulation to quarantine?

Congrats and Best of cLuck (skreech and honk) to you in the future.

thank you

, the birds are all doing great! .. been a little tied up w/ lawnmower problems and inept help from toro's tech. assistance -- got it resolved w/ no help from them... anyway....................

i've taken videos, but i kinda dragged them all out

.. i'll work on a better one this weekend...

cluck-- just got it LOL .... i think the newswoman was the last straw so to speak...i don't think that without everything that everyone did PRIOR to that, it would have made a difference ...

 

[johnskoi]

I moved to Florida from LI 10 years ago. Suffolk county

me too -- grew up in commack, spent the next decade from coram to massapequa, til i settled in manorville for 22 years ... i miss it sometimes, but i now have my little slice of heaven right here

born in '64.... what town(s) were you in?

 

[Ray_n_Debi]

Quote: Moved from Suffolk County to South Carolina in '87

 

[seminolewind]

Quote: My family is from Center Moriches, that was always home to me. Then I grew up and moved to Ridge and lived there for 26 years, street behind the fire station. Small world, huh? I must have passed thru Manorville a zillion times on Wading River Road. I was born in "59 at Riverhead hospital.

Hey, isn't Manorville where the Pelosi's lived??? LOL

 

[seminolewind]

Quote: Moved from Suffolk County to South Carolina in '87

Where in Suffolk county?