Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[chicken pickin]

Couldn't re-establish the connection last night - so here is the grid. Obviously the one that is 0%gold is silver and wouldn't be considered cream. The one that is 100% gold is gold -- particularly distinct due to the burnt orange body and wing plumage of the female. 60%-90% gold appearance are not on the chart.

Although these are only pictures, and although the brown Leghorn + barring genetics that underlie this breed are not identical to the CL, the underlying genetics of a crele leghorn are awfully close to how the CL was made in Punnett's day. So which intensity of non-silver would you draw the line and say this crosses over to a different variety?

When I began this thread 4-months ago - I was kind of brain-washed into thinking that anything that looked similar to the Applegarth or the cockerel that won in the UK in 2014 needed to be in a different variety. After 4-months and over 400 posts - my conclusion is that not only is another variety not necessary -- it is not going to be a positive step for the CL breed.

I think that the confusion over 'silver' in chickens is part of the problem, so I will just revisit one silver chicken that is posted here - it won at the Texas State Fair last year -- so I suspect that it is a good example of a silver chicken....

IMO the appearance of the above silver chicken is a match to about 50% or more gold appearance above.

The can of worms that would be opened right now by making a different although very similar variety - IMO needlessly - by dividing out colorful birds would seriously damage or set back the breed. I'm not 100% sure what would be gained...

Should there become actual scientific data that the colors are simply ig/ig vs another combination of that gene (Ig/Ig or Ig/ig)-- then at that time a different variety could be established. There are quite a number of diluters and intensifiers that could be influencing the plumage, as well as nutritional and environmental factors. (a lot of these were covered in this thread). At that time then, with scientific data another variety could be established. People don't know if they have split silver, autosomal red, champagne gene or other diluter. There are a lot of adamant positions - but they aren't really based on all the possible factors IMO. The rosecomb - definitely another variety, the white recessive - different genetics underlie the appearance -

Were a similar variety to be established now, as I thought at the beginning was required to SAVE Cream Legbars that had the appearance of the Applegarth male, the "more colorful" cream legbars, there would be so much confusion and so much narrowing of the gene pool, so many that thought that they had Cream Legbars only to be told that they don't. (sadly based more on opinoins, interpretation and preferences IMO) -- Sorry, but I don't think I could be a contributor to that much harm the breed. So although this thread was started to explore the need for a different variety using the working name crele -- after 400 posts and a walk thru of the SOP with the Applegarth male - with no huge divergence to the SOP other than those noted in the walk-thru. I not only don't think that an alternative crele SOP is needed, I think it would be damaging, and I think that it is so far now - after 400 posts - from my philosophy about the Cream Legbar that I couldn't take part in making an alternative SOP.

So if someone has come to a conclusion very different from mine -- they can take the torch and create an alternative SOP. If colorful CLs are not "correct" - then I guess the will die out as the pendulum swings back toward the very light ones.

I think your post was very well said , and I agree with you on this. There are many factors that give the CL their color appearance and even if genetically cream, some CL might show less or more color in appearance which will make it a little confusing for some along the way. We each as breeders need to do a balancing act and find what works for us and allow ourselves the range of cream we are looking for while breeding forward. Currently I might be on the "paler" end while many others might be on the slightly "brighter" end, but as ChicKat has said and also shown through the walk thru they both do seem to fall into the SOP. I agree whole heartedly that their is no need for the crele variety because they simply would be too close to the Cream variety.

It is interesting to see the silver bird posted above, when I think of silver I think of black and white chickens. I wasnt aware they had that much color on them. So maybe I am still misunderstanding the color aspect of our CL a little.

@ChicKat where do you feel the CL fall on the chart above? I was thinking the 40-45% range originally but after seeing the silver bird you posted, Im not sure.

 

[ChicKat]

I think your post was very well said , and I agree with you on this. There are many factors that give the CL their color appearance and even if genetically cream, some CL might show less or more color in appearance which will make it a little confusing for some along the way. We each as breeders need to do a balancing act and find what works for us and allow ourselves the range of cream we are looking for while breeding forward. Currently I might be on the "paler" end while many others might be on the slightly "brighter" end, but as ChicKat has said and also shown through the walk thru they both do seem to fall into the SOP. I agree whole heartedly that their is no need for the crele variety because they simply would be too close to the Cream variety.

It is interesting to see the silver bird posted above, when I think of silver I think of black and white chickens. I wasnt aware they had that much color on them. So maybe I am still misunderstanding the color aspect of our CL a little.

@ChicKat where do you feel the CL fall on the chart above? I was thinking the 40-45% range originally but after seeing the silver bird you posted, Im not sure.

cp - I guess is it partially how one interprets the color of 'pale butter' ;O) At times I think that everything that ranges from the 10% gold to the 50% gold in appearance would be considered cream - and there will be some that diverge from that. BTW before this thread I thought that the range was narrower.

To my mind - especially now - it is more important to get a number of healthy, fertile, highly productive, docile, crested chickens in people's hands. Over years to come -- I believe that the chickens will grow lighter -- even if the starting point for someone is the one that dretd had culled for being too colorful and too cocky -- It seems that the 2nd generations of mine are lighter than the first -- and I have a highly melanized flock --

I think that the breed will find it's norm in the future.

 

[dretd]

I decided to remove my post becasue its not really helpful. No problem to stay with an all inclusive Cream SOP.

Good luck with everyone's hatches--may they be everything you want for your flock!

 

[ChicKat]

It is interesting to see the silver bird posted above, when I think of silver I think of black and white chickens. I wasnt aware they had that much color on them. So maybe I am still misunderstanding the color aspect of our CL a little..

Some words about silver--- Yes, I also thought that silver was only a black and white appearance...a silvery-white.

The above chicken that won at the TX State Fair -- would probably become more black and white after a molt. The sun on silver turns it a different color. I strongly suspect that the silver above has the effect of harsh TX sun influencing his coloration. Another influencer on plumage is diet. Flamingos wouldn't be pink - they turn gray when high-beta carotene food is removed from their diet. (Gray or white flamingos)-- just as one example of the effects of nutrition on plumage.

Oh sheesh -- I can't resist:


from this link:
http://greennutritionals.com.au/astaxanthin/what-are-carotenoids/

there is also some research that carotenoids will intensify the blue of the egg shell -- it's in the Cream Legbar Club's 'clubhouse'.

 

[ChicKat]

For those who felt that they didn't have time or opportunity to express their viewpoints and for the possible alternative varieties of Legbars in the future, please post photos and comments in this thread for educational and historic record-keeping of the breed and the progress.

Here is a view from dretd:

....... it may be too early to split off the Undiluted Crele from the Cream Legbar especially because we aren’t sure what specific areas are the ones that differentiate the two from one another. However we can see that at some point at the future there may be a need to have a second Variety since there are some birds that come along that are very, very richly colored, perhaps too colorful to fit into the Cream Variety and many people have expressed that they find that more colorful version very attractive—much like what happened with the Light and Dark Brown Varieties of Leghorns many years ago. We invite you to post pictures of birds that you think are too colorful to fit the current SOP along with details about what specifically you are seeing that lead you to that conclusion. Posting pictures and specifics would be very helpful in the future so that if and when we do write a more colorful SOP variety, the differences will be more clear-cut and easier to differentiate in the Alternative SOP wording.

I suggest that we use the UK 2014 Cockerel and Pullet winners and the Applegarth pair as the 'benchmark' to compare coloration - so 'more colorful' or 'less colorful' would refer to those three examples.

 

[sol2go]

For those who felt that they didn't have time or opportunity to express their viewpoints and for the possible alternative varieties of Legbars in the future, please post photos and comments in this thread for educational and historic record-keeping of the breed and the progress.

Here is a view from dretd:

....... it may be too early to split off the Undiluted Crele from the Cream Legbar especially because we aren’t sure what specific areas are the ones that differentiate the two from one another. However we can see that at some point at the future there may be a need to have a second Variety since there are some birds that come along that are very, very richly colored, perhaps too colorful to fit into the Cream Variety and many people have expressed that they find that more colorful version very attractive—much like what happened with the Light and Dark Brown Varieties of Leghorns many years ago. We invite you to post pictures of birds that you think are too colorful to fit the current SOP along with details about what specifically you are seeing that lead you to that conclusion. Posting pictures and specifics would be very helpful in the future so that if and when we do write a more colorful SOP variety, the differences will be more clear-cut and easier to differentiate in the Alternative SOP wording.

I suggest that we use the UK 2014 Cockerel and Pullet winners and the Applegarth pair as the 'benchmark' to compare coloration - so 'more colorful' or 'less colorful' would refer to those three examples.

Hi everybody,

I continue to have a question about the rooster in the last photo: does anyone else see gold in his wing triangle? Would he then be considered "gold" based on the tells I have read thus far?

Thanks!

 

[chicken pickin]

Hi everybody,

I continue to have a question about the rooster in the last photo: does anyone else see gold in his wing triangle? Would he then be considered "gold" based on the tells I have read thus far?

Thanks!

That is my thought when I look at the last pic also, I think I see color in his wing triangle. According to the Standard, color besides gray and white in the wing triangle is a no-no. Maybe color in the wing triangle doesnt necessarily mean he is gold, but he does look a little more on the gold side rather than the cream. I personally do go by the wing triangle when deciding gold and cream within my flock. I don't know if there is 100% consensus with using that as the determining factor or not but I think it is part of what we should look at.

 

[ChicKat]

Hi everybody,

I continue to have a question about the rooster in the last photo: does anyone else see gold in his wing triangle? Would he then be considered "gold" based on the tells I have read thus far?

Thanks!

That is my thought when I look at the last pic also, I think I see color in his wing triangle. According to the Standard, color besides gray and white in the wing triangle is a no-no. Maybe color in the wing triangle doesnt necessarily mean he is gold, but he does look a little more on the gold side rather than the cream. I personally do go by the wing triangle when deciding gold and cream within my flock. I don't know if there is 100% consensus with using that as the determining factor or not but I think it is part of what we should look at.

Here's more how I see it. The SOP calls for 6 points on the comb. If a cockerel has 5 we don't say it isn't a CL. The SOP calls for only gray barring in the wing:



Wings: Fronts and Bows—dark gray, faintly barred, some chestnut permissible.
Coverts—gray, barred, tipped in cream.
Primaries—dark gray, faintly barred, some white permissible.
Secondaries—dark gray, more clearly barred.

It doesn't actually say 'barred gray and white' or 'barred gray and cream' in the secondaries -- strangely enough (I cut and pasted the above from the website)--- It just says "more clearly barred". I take this to mean that the barring will be more evident in the secondaries....

We are going by the idea that the barring in the perfect bird would be only gray and (cream?) - or maybe dark and light gray or gray and white.... -- so a third color may be a miss for the bulls-eye of perfection according to the SOP. However, in the same way that a 5-pointed comb, it isn't perfection -- but it is still a CL, I think that the Applegarth bird is a Cream Legbar.

Does anyone know where the fear of gold originated? -- A friend in Wales UK said there was an advert. over there for a Cream Legbar without any of that nasty gold in it.... and my friend had to kind of remind the advertiser that -- the bird is gold based.
ETA if the advertiser's birds were truly Cream Legbars -- they had better have some of that nasty gold in them - or else they are missing one of the components. ;o)

 

[chicken pickin]

Here's more how I see it. The SOP calls for 6 points on the comb. If a cockerel has 5 we don't say it isn't a CL. The SOP calls for only gray barring in the wing:



Wings: Fronts and Bows—dark gray, faintly barred, some chestnut permissible.
Coverts—gray, barred, tipped in cream.
Primaries—dark gray, faintly barred, some white permissible.
Secondaries—dark gray, more clearly barred.

It doesn't actually say 'barred gray and white' or 'barred gray and cream' in the secondaries -- strangely enough (I cut and pasted the above from the website)--- It just says "more clearly barred". I take this to mean that the barring will be more evident in the secondaries....

We are going by the idea that the barring in the perfect bird would be only gray and (cream?) - or maybe dark and light gray or gray and white.... -- so a third color may be a miss for the bulls-eye of perfection according to the SOP. However, in the same way that a 5-pointed comb, it isn't perfection -- but it is still a CL, I think that the Applegarth bird is a Cream Legbar.

Does anyone know where the fear of gold originated? -- A friend in Wales UK said there was an advert. over there for a Cream Legbar without any of that nasty gold in it.... and my friend had to kind of remind the advertiser that -- the bird is gold based.
ETA if the advertiser's birds were truly Cream Legbars -- they had better have some of that nasty gold in them - or else they are missing one of the components. ;o)

Oh yes I completely agree 100%. I would never say a bird was not a Cream Legbar if it has a little more color showing through or not as how the standard writes. They are all Cream Legbars. And of course they are gold based and yes must have, show, or carry some degree of gold. I do not think a muted gray and white Cream Legbar is correct by far, they need to have a little gold showing through to be able to achieve the beautiful cream we do see on some of the CL out there. It was just my understanding that the triangle should be free of color, I have seen it again and again, post after post and I am guilty of also posting that wing triangles should be free of color because it is something I thought people were agreeing upon. I suppose either no color or some color can be allowed in the wing triangle, though I personally will breed toward a gray barred, colorless wing triangle as that is my preference.

 

[sol2go]

Hi everybody,

I continue to have a question about the rooster in the last photo: does anyone else see gold in his wing triangle? Would he then be considered "gold" based on the tells I have read thus far?

Thanks!

Let's try that again…I'm not saying the rooster is not the result of a Cream Legbar breeding program. However, I am suggesting that he might have been the result of parents that were not double for cream and thus he exhibits gold in his wing triangle, possibly an indication that he is single, not double for cream. That is the conversation. It was not an assertion that the rooster is a hybrid or from a mix of any sort.

Yes, the Cream Legbars are intended to be a double gold based breed. The rather elusive beauty of the Cream Legbars in particular, is obtaining a double dose of dilute, or cream, which acts to modify the appearance of the gold; all of the gold, not just some of the gold, is the way I understand it.