Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

This brings up a discussion point to come back to the original point of the thread.

What if you breed these Recessive White birds? Wouldnt they be, or lead to, an alternative Legbar. Similar to how the delware is the result of breeding the sports.

Looking at some of the Rees line of CLB it seems that the complete absence of chestnut leads to some interesting variation in the plumage that seems very distinct.

I'm also thinking that birds specifically bred to enhance the chestnut color could end up with a different kind of bird too.

My question in this is with such a complex color pallet to work with where do you think the line gets drawn between selectively breeding for a color variation (which seems near impossible to "fix") and just the "not correct CLB"


At this point in looking at all the variation, not to mention debate on what is creme, I think there are alternative legbars hiding under the covers and the only way to really get at them is to begin to separate the "Cream" from the Gold and Silver. I think "Cream" and chestnut permissible issues will continue long after the SOP is adopted. However even if the CLB standard is set it doesnt mean that another Legbar could not be developed from "Cream"

First, I guess a lot of people didn't understand or didn't read the thought process during the thread -- but skipped - Or they didn't participate to present other views. As Kendy stated above -- our Club president has also said that there doesn't appear to be enough difference in the hens to be a different variety - at this point. So although this thread was exploring the interest in added varieties, the interest didn't seem to be materialized and the line between what would be one or the other variety -- didn't seem to become clear IMO.

although the recessive white birds are beautiful, (as are the normal CLs - it is just easier perhaps to see in the white ones)--- since autosexing is based on the combination of Wild-type plus barring -- I am beginning to suspect that since the whites will grow up with no barring, and the wild-type is very faint in the offspring of normal looking parents, it is unlikely that the autosexing will continue into successive generations. I asked about this in the thread devoted to the recessive whites and there seem to be very few if any 'second generation' recessives. Should they become common - I wonder that autosexing would show in the 2nd or 3rd generation and onward. It needs to be autosexing to be a Legbar.

There are other things in the Rees line that are very unusual - in addition to some irregular barring and barring patterns, the sexability of some of the chicks is not as easy as many other lines of CL. It could be possible that some of the out crosses that have happened in the UK to reach that point introduced other than e+ on the E-Locus... .

in this paper, on page three you can see a diagram of some of the variations in chick down caused by the various e-alleles.

http://www.genetics.org/content/40/4/519.full.pdf

IMO when chick down begins to deviate - it could indicate that some of the other bases are at work in the chicks..... When selection for just one trait is the only one used -- other traits can be minimized or lost.

this is so interesting that the color palette is complex - but please oh, please -- show me an image of what you are thinking is the 'correct' --- And it will be easier and more productive to have some discussion of the 'not correct' -- Depending upon your familiarity with animal species - or even humans for that matter -- even all brown eyed and dark haired people don't quite look alike, there are variations -- in ever animal I am familiar with (except maybe Black Angus cattle) -- there are variations in appearance -- so to expect only one is very narrow. How far from that one - begins to be 'just not correct' - would be an interesting conversation if we could support it with some solid images. Your very valid point IMO is where the line would be drawn between the variations - And yes, selection would require a very long time.

Earlier in this thread, Walt had said he could envision how there could be other varieties of Legbar - so it is perhaps a very real possibility.....and Walt had said that he has seen about 4-looks that were different.

The most important factor - is the ability to recognize a Cream Legbar.... This isn't the very narrow definition of is this a perfect Cream Legbar -- because it could be that the perfect Cream Legbar will never be achieved. It could easily be that there is no chicken that is going to match the SOP 100% - It could be that there is the nearly perfect CL - perfect in every way -- except it has the wrong number of points. As BuffyBugSlayer responded some many posts ago -- (post 775)

I guess for me, I feel like the more colorful end and the light end of this particular set of pictures are similar enough that a casual observer would recognize them as belonging to the same breed. There really isn't a whole lot of difference in my opinion. Certainly not enough to split off.

And in the next post Walt said 'I agree'

To my understanding, that would indicate that the images there are recognizable as Cream Legbars. (Please correct me if I am mistaken here, Walt) If you, cychris, (or anyone) were to go to a poultry exhibition and see chickens that looked like those - you would know that they are Cream legbars...... I wonder that some people are not making it more difficult than it actually needs to be. JMO.

 

[caychris]

First, I guess a lot of people didn't understand or didn't read the thought process during the thread -- but skipped - Or they didn't participate to present other views. As Kendy stated above -- our Club president has also said that there doesn't appear to be enough difference in the hens to be a different variety - at this point. So although this thread was exploring the interest in added varieties, the interest didn't seem to be materialized and the line between what would be one or the other variety -- didn't seem to become clear IMO.

although the recessive white birds are beautiful, (as are the normal CLs - it is just easier perhaps to see in the white ones)--- since autosexing is based on the combination of Wild-type plus barring -- I am beginning to suspect that since the whites will grow up with no barring, and the wild-type is very faint in the offspring of normal looking parents, it is unlikely that the autosexing will continue into successive generations. I asked about this in the thread devoted to the recessive whites and there seem to be very few if any 'second generation' recessives. Should they become common - I wonder that autosexing would show in the 2nd or 3rd generation and onward. It needs to be autosexing to be a Legbar.

There are other things in the Rees line that are very unusual - in addition to some irregular barring and barring patterns, the sexability of some of the chicks is not as easy as many other lines of CL. It could be possible that some of the out crosses that have happened in the UK to reach that point introduced other than e+ on the E-Locus... .

in this paper, on page three you can see a diagram of some of the variations in chick down caused by the various e-alleles.

http://www.genetics.org/content/40/4/519.full.pdf

IMO when chick down begins to deviate - it could indicate that some of the other bases are at work in the chicks..... When selection for just one trait is the only one used -- other traits can be minimized or lost.

this is so interesting that the color palette is complex - but please oh, please -- show me an image of what you are thinking is the 'correct' --- And it will be easier and more productive to have some discussion of the 'not correct' -- Depending upon your familiarity with animal species - or even humans for that matter -- even all brown eyed and dark haired people don't quite look alike, there are variations -- in ever animal I am familiar with (except maybe Black Angus cattle) -- there are variations in appearance -- so to expect only one is very narrow. How far from that one - begins to be 'just not correct' - would be an interesting conversation if we could support it with some solid images. Your very valid point IMO is where the line would be drawn between the variations - And yes, selection would require a very long time.

Earlier in this thread, Walt had said he could envision how there could be other varieties of Legbar - so it is perhaps a very real possibility.....and Walt had said that he has seen about 4-looks that were different.

The most important factor - is the ability to recognize a Cream Legbar.... This isn't the very narrow definition of is this a perfect Cream Legbar -- because it could be that the perfect Cream Legbar will never be achieved. It could easily be that there is no chicken that is going to match the SOP 100% - It could be that there is the nearly perfect CL - perfect in every way -- except it has the wrong number of points. As BuffyBugSlayer responded some many posts ago -- (post 775)

I guess for me, I feel like the more colorful end and the light end of this particular set of pictures are similar enough that a casual observer would recognize them as belonging to the same breed. There really isn't a whole lot of difference in my opinion. Certainly not enough to split off.

And in the next post Walt said 'I agree'

To my understanding, that would indicate that the images there are recognizable as Cream Legbars. (Please correct me if I am mistaken here, Walt) If you, cychris, (or anyone) were to go to a poultry exhibition and see chickens that looked like those - you would know that they are Cream legbars...... I wonder that some people are not making it more difficult than it actually needs to be. JMO.

Its my understanding that the whites would still carry the barring gene but without the color to restrict it wouldnt present (or be extremely faint as to not be seen easily)

I was making a more general comment on what kind of differences might actually present as a different legbar not just an incorrect Cream
Didnt Walt also say that they will need to breed at least 50% true.

There are lots of ways in which a breeder may depart from the CLB to a new breed I was just thinking that subselecting a color variation isnt the way to go about it at least not yet. The breed here in the US is derived from the breed in the UK (unless someone is recreating them like what was done with the delaware) so any breeding of a color variation at this point is starting with CLB stock ( however correct or incorrect they may be) So the most important thing to establish is what is a CLB in order to then determine how different your breeding program makes your bird. In short most of the discussion at this point had boiled down to nailing that down and there appear to be 3 major challenges primarily with the males in accomplishig that 1 the color of your pale butter 2 Saddle Hackle shade matching 3 how much chestnut Females present different challenges How grey/brown should they be how big is the crest (males seem to be generally assumed to have smaller ones by virture of the issues with comb) and the salmon breast.

I have not read the entire thread but I think something that has not been actively discussed is breeding of SOP males to SOP females resulting in non SOP birds in either gender. I think this is one area that would really need to be considered when really looking at the desired colors. I know we have a ways to go yet but in my opinion if breeding an SOP male to an SOP female (not perfect birds but good show quality) results in non show quality of the offspring then one of two things has happened. Either the gentics are still too random to classify as a breed or the breed as defined by the SOP is not correct. Now Im not saying this is happening in the breed now but I do think that as we get more people trying to breed to a standard we might actually see this a bit (could be a bit of a reason the breed is so all over the map now)

I know this is a bit of a ramble but based on all the conversations to date I was trying to intimate that without a Cream Standard other Legbars would be something difficult to define. The only reason we even have a proposed standard is because of the British one.

I think it is good for those wanting alternative legbars to begin identifying their Cream Legbars with the proposed standard first as a point of departure first. Without that standard (which should promote the breed as is enough to get people breeding them) there is no point of reference to approach a different breed. (No matter how incorrectly the hidden breeds may have been contained in the UK standard)

Does that make my position as clear as mud

Ive come to the conclusion that the UK standard may have been a mistake and too narrowly defined the breed as a Cream Legbar when the blue egg legbar may vary well have several breeds in it. But we need to start with what we have which is a set of British birds called Cream Legbars.

 

[ChicKat]

Its my understanding that the whites would still carry the barring gene but without the color to restrict it wouldnt present (or be extremely faint as to not be seen easily)

I was making a more general comment on what kind of differences might actually present as a different legbar not just an incorrect Cream
Didnt Walt also say that they will need to breed at least 50% true.

There are lots of ways in which a breeder may depart from the CLB to a new breed I was just thinking that subselecting a color variation isnt the way to go about it at least not yet. The breed here in the US is derived from the breed in the UK (unless someone is recreating them like what was done with the delaware) so any breeding of a color variation at this point is starting with CLB stock ( however correct or incorrect they may be) So the most important thing to establish is what is a CLB in order to then determine how different your breeding program makes your bird. In short most of the discussion at this point had boiled down to nailing that down and there appear to be 3 major challenges primarily with the males in accomplishig that 1 the color of your pale butter 2 Saddle Hackle shade matching 3 how much chestnut Females present different challenges How grey/brown should they be how big is the crest (males seem to be generally assumed to have smaller ones by virture of the issues with comb) and the salmon breast.

I have not read the entire thread but I think something that has not been actively discussed is breeding of SOP males to SOP females resulting in non SOP birds in either gender. I think this is one area that would really need to be considered when really looking at the desired colors. I know we have a ways to go yet but in my opinion if breeding an SOP male to an SOP female (not perfect birds but good show quality) results in non show quality of the offspring then one of two things has happened. Either the gentics are still too random to classify as a breed or the breed as defined by the SOP is not correct. Now Im not saying this is happening in the breed now but I do think that as we get more people trying to breed to a standard we might actually see this a bit (could be a bit of a reason the breed is so all over the map now)

I know this is a bit of a ramble but based on all the conversations to date I was trying to intimate that without a Cream Standard other Legbars would be something difficult to define. The only reason we even have a proposed standard is because of the British one.

I think it is good for those wanting alternative legbars to begin identifying their Cream Legbars with the proposed standard first as a point of departure first. Without that standard (which should promote the breed as is enough to get people breeding them) there is no point of reference to approach a different breed. (No matter how incorrectly the hidden breeds may have been contained in the UK standard)

Does that make my position as clear as mud

Ive come to the conclusion that the UK standard may have been a mistake and too narrowly defined the breed as a Cream Legbar when the blue egg legbar may vary well have several breeds in it. But we need to start with what we have which is a set of British birds called Cream Legbars.

ahhh yes, it is as clear as mud. I think when you are saying different breeds within the Cream Legbar you are meaning different varieties.

One point that you bring up -- also is VERY interesting regarding standards in general...and breeds like ours with sexual dimorphism. Some show breeders for some breeds (I have read more about this in writings from the UK) - have what they call a 'pullet-breeding line' and a 'cock-breeding line' - This is the idea of dual mating -- etc. --- The reason that they do this is the SOP describes the two looks so differently that for the people who want to excell in shows they have one or the other -- There are even some breeds in Europe where the standards are written in such a way that it actually is not possible to get the SOP male - from a line of SOP females. ( You might be able to google Sigrid Van Dort - she writes about some of this - and if you can ever get hld of her books on the Colours of chicken genetics -- it is mind boggling! )

We were hoping that the CL wouldn't go that route. One concession to keeping it all in one family is the idea that the female crest (females genetics give them larger crests than the males -- just like males have pointed hackle feathers generally and females don't, males crests are more like tufts often). The idea that a very large pompom resembling a Polish is correct for CLs is kind of squelched by the SOP wording that designates it is medium - and I think it also is meant not to interfere with vision...if memory serves. So by avoiding the largest possible pompom on a female CL - we open the doors for more SOP matched combs on the males - as one example.

 

[KendyF]

ahhh yes, it is as clear as mud. I think when you are saying different breeds within the Cream Legbar you are meaning different varieties.

One point that you bring up -- also is VERY interesting regarding standards in general...and breeds like ours with sexual dimorphism. Some show breeders for some breeds (I have read more about this in writings from the UK) - have what they call a 'pullet-breeding line' and a 'cock-breeding line' - This is the idea of dual mating -- etc. --- The reason that they do this is the SOP describes the two looks so differently that for the people who want to excell in shows they have one or the other -- There are even some breeds in Europe where the standards are written in such a way that it actually is not possible to get the SOP male - from a line of SOP females. ( You might be able to google Sigrid Van Dort - she writes about some of this - and if you can ever get hld of her books on the Colours of chicken genetics -- it is mind boggling! )

We were hoping that the CL wouldn't go that route. One concession to keeping it all in one family is the idea that the female crest (females genetics give them larger crests than the males -- just like males have pointed hackle feathers generally and females don't, males crests are more like tufts often). The idea that a very large pompom resembling a Polish is correct for CLs is kind of squelched by the SOP wording that designates it is medium - and I think it also is meant not to interfere with vision...if memory serves. So by avoiding the largest possible pompom on a female CL - we open the doors for more SOP matched combs on the males - as one example.

I have a question.... Shoot we are going to get this whole thread hopping again. I did lurk and read the entire thread, but if this was covered I don't remember it. Can anyone think of another breed or variety of a breed with a broad range of color?

Here is the quote from Walt: I take it to mean, there needs to be an ideal color to shoot for.
Quote: As Chickat stated, many of us might have imperfect legbars, just as I have some BCMs who have "muddy" black. However, I do know what I am supposed to shoot for as the ideal color with the Marans.

We need that picture to shoot for!

 

[caychris]

ahhh yes, it is as clear as mud. I think when you are saying different breeds within the Cream Legbar you are meaning different varieties.

One point that you bring up -- also is VERY interesting regarding standards in general...and breeds like ours with sexual dimorphism. Some show breeders for some breeds (I have read more about this in writings from the UK) - have what they call a 'pullet-breeding line' and a 'cock-breeding line' - This is the idea of dual mating -- etc. --- The reason that they do this is the SOP describes the two looks so differently that for the people who want to excell in shows they have one or the other -- There are even some breeds in Europe where the standards are written in such a way that it actually is not possible to get the SOP male - from a line of SOP females. ( You might be able to google Sigrid Van Dort - she writes about some of this - and if you can ever get hld of her books on the Colours of chicken genetics -- it is mind boggling! )

We were hoping that the CL wouldn't go that route. One concession to keeping it all in one family is the idea that the female crest (females genetics give them larger crests than the males -- just like males have pointed hackle feathers generally and females don't, males crests are more like tufts often). The idea that a very large pompom resembling a Polish is correct for CLs is kind of squelched by the SOP wording that designates it is medium - and I think it also is meant not to interfere with vision...if memory serves. So by avoiding the largest possible pompom on a female CL - we open the doors for more SOP matched combs on the males - as one example.

yes varieties my newbie showing again

 

[ChicKat]

yes varieties my newbie showing again

I do that ALL the time -- all the time...one of my very WORST is I say 'crest' when I mean 'comb' and 'comb' when I mean 'crest'.....

 

[ChicKat]

I have a question.... Shoot we are going to get this whole thread hopping again. I did lurk and read the entire thread, but if this was covered I don't remember it. Can anyone think of another breed or variety of a breed with a broad range of color?

Here is the quote from Walt: I take it to mean, there needs to be an ideal color to shoot for.
As Chickat stated, many of us might have imperfect legbars, just as I have some BCMs who have "muddy" black. However, I do know what I am supposed to shoot for as the ideal color with the Marans.

We need that picture to shoot for!

Something to shoot for would be like having a target that has a bulls eye .

One breed that comes to mind for me is the Cream Brabanter....I was really interested in how beautiful they are...but later decided I didn't want Abraham Lincoln beards on my little hens.

Here are some web-shots:







Here is Diane Jacky image of Cream Brabanter




There is also a gold Brabanter -- image here to show how different the gold is:


Any one could google these and find images....

Although the above pictures are various shades of Cream (except for the gold ones of course), - I doubt that someone would say 'that's not a Cream Brabanter - because it isn't just one color'. Some may be more desirable than others...etc.etc.etc. -- BTW this is a breed unrecognized by the APA.

 

[caychris]

Something to shoot for would be like having a target that has a bulls eye .

One breed that comes to mind for me is the Cream Brabanter....I was really interested in how beautiful they are...but later decided I didn't want Abraham Lincoln beards on my little hens.

Here are some web-shots:







Here is Diane Jacky image of Cream Brabanter




There is also a gold Brabanter -- image here to show how different the gold is:


Any one could google these and find images....

Although the above pictures are various shades of Cream (except for the gold ones of course), - I doubt that someone would say 'that's not a Cream Brabanter - because it isn't just one color'. Some may be more desirable than others...etc.etc.etc. -- BTW this is a breed unrecognized by the APA.

I think this is a very good example though it would be tough for me to distinguish which is incorrect for which in some of those pictures. Too much gold on a cream or to little gold on a gold seems to be fuzzy (imo)

For me I have 2 birds right now at 13 weeks who have quite a bit of chestnut in the saddle but have about half and half cream chestnut in the hackles
Bird 1 saddle is definitely too brown


Bird 2 saddle is just starting in (this is the keeper of the 2 because the tail is not as off center)


I really like this guy at this point
However this is one area where I think cream and another variety would get confusing.

For example if I breed number 1 to this girl


What am I likely to get (I know they are both young now
but my suspicion is that the chestnut/brown will begin to take over. (Though with as complexity of genetics im likely to get lots of variation)
but they would be different than the offspring with this female



So with additional varieties I could focus on the look that I like and still stay within the Blue Egg Legbar. (plugging again)

My question is with the Barbanters how would you know which you were breeding if incorrect birds for both look so similar.

 

[ChicKat]

I think this is a very good example though it would be tough for me to distinguish which is incorrect for which in some of those pictures. Too much gold on a cream or to little gold on a gold seems to be fuzzy (imo)

For me I have 2 birds right now at 13 weeks who have quite a bit of chestnut in the saddle but have about half and half cream chestnut in the hackles
Bird 1 saddle is definitely too brown


Bird 2 saddle is just starting in (this is the keeper of the 2 because the tail is not as off center)


I really like this guy at this point
However this is one area where I think cream and another variety would get confusing.

For example if I breed number 1 to this girl


What am I likely to get (I know they are both young now
but my suspicion is that the chestnut/brown will begin to take over. (Though with as complexity of genetics im likely to get lots of variation)
but they would be different than the offspring with this female



So with additional varieties I could focus on the look that I like and still stay within the Blue Egg Legbar. (plugging again)

My question is with the Barbanters how would you know which you were breeding if incorrect birds for both look so similar.

Yes I see what you are saying, and chestnut is not mentioned in the SOP for either saddles or hackles. Seems like this came up a couple of years ago - and if I remember, it was concluded that saddle and hackle chestnut may be indicators of missing dilution gene(s)...but it has been some long years past. I think it was in conversation with GaryDean26, but I can't say for sure, it may be in the first thread where we hammered out the first draft of an SOP. ---

Pairing with your first pullet and also with your second would probably give very 'chestnut' looking offspring as you are saying - it probably depends on things we haven't even considered as of yet such as the Mahogany gene... And yes, then I imagine it would be a distinctive look - and be different enough to be a variety - and like the Gold Brabanter, it would instantly be something the ordinary person could tell.

Regarding which Cream Brabanter is the perfect one -- I couldn't say. My point is that there is a range of Creams and I doubt that any of them would be kicked to the curb for not being 'cream'. ---- I think part of the problem with our breed - was a strong attempt to make it look silver-white. Perhaps this is correct - but then if that WERE the case - the UK SOP should have said silver instead of cream -- and it didn't. At the beginning of this thread - (if y'all can remember way that far back) -- the look was extremely light -- and some very white/silver looking birds were being touted as the best. I think in the intervening year -- we have learned a lot - and I think the pendulum has swung away from the white-looking is the ideal ... JMO

 

[caychris]

Yes I see what you are saying, and chestnut is not mentioned in the SOP for either saddles or hackles. Seems like this came up a couple of years ago - and if I remember, it was concluded that saddle and hackle chestnut may be indicators of missing dilution gene(s)...but it has been some long years past. I think it was in conversation with GaryDean26, but I can't say for sure, it may be in the first thread where we hammered out the first draft of an SOP. ---

Pairing with your first pullet and also with your second would probably give very 'chestnut' looking offspring as you are saying - it probably depends on things we haven't even considered as of yet such as the Mahogany gene... And yes, then I imagine it would be a distinctive look - and be different enough to be a variety - and like the Gold Brabanter, it would instantly be something the ordinary person could tell.

Regarding which Cream Brabanter is the perfect one -- I couldn't say. My point is that there is a range of Creams and I doubt that any of them would be kicked to the curb for not being 'cream'. ---- I think part of the problem with our breed - was a strong attempt to make it look silver-white. Perhaps this is correct - but then if that WERE the case - the UK SOP should have said silver instead of cream -- and it didn't. At the beginning of this thread - (if y'all can remember way that far back) -- the look was extremely light -- and some very white/silver looking birds were being touted as the best. I think in the intervening year -- we have learned a lot - and I think the pendulum has swung away from the white-looking is the ideal ... JMO

I was using the imperfect Brabanters as a way to illustrate how difficult multiple varieties with similar genetics can be to distinguish when working with imperfect birds. It appears from the pics that some of these could be bad golds or bad cream with no easy way to tell which you have. I think with multiple varieties in the CLB this would also be a problem.