Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

Speaking to a few points that were brought up:

FOR CRELE
short legs
I had 7 CL sisters (until the coyote attack greatly reduced their numbers).
There was a lot of variety including short legs. The short legs also came with fuller bodies; some small some large, but all fuller. Although we may want fuller bodies, it makes sense to me to stay with the legs as described for the Cream Legbars (not short).

I have two types of females here too (actually about 3-types)--

and before any misunderstandings can sneak in the door -- I would make a change to Lillian to fit the SOP and not the SOP to fit Lillian BTW...

I have the short legged type - and the more Leghorn look. I am breeding toward the longer legs... MY short legged had a bigger crest strangely - but smaller comb, and she has 'messy' feathers by her legs. -- she also has a better tail angle than the Leghorn type. I will see if I can get a photo - and show comparison of these two - for reference for our learning - not to have change to SOP -- but we would all benefit to know which body-type of hen is the more "correct" one...and I don't recall seeing this anywhere on the threads in all these years... Are there other than two main types-- the short-legged Lillian type (also the first CL on GFF's page the original female) - and the other more Leghorn looking - and looking more like the Punnett images of the Gold Legbar.

 

[sol2go]

Yep, I think that this is a beautiful cockerel coloration that we would risk loosing - to the world...and a 'crele' SOP could help preserve it....... I wonder if there are any breeds that use a different hackle, saddle coloration as one of the indicators of variety-- I know that the duck wings use the wing triangle - brown = gold duck wing and white = silver duck wing so we would not be blazing a new trail with that one...as the tell - although more subtle to say ones is "only gray-white" and the other one is "not only gray-white".....

ETA - edited and changed 'type' to 'variety' -- you all knew what I meant though didn't you .....

I guess I'm asking, has anyone seen a double cream male CL with color in the wing triangle?
I realize there is a distinctive difference for silver vs gold in the wing triangle, utilizing the concept of duck wing.
Might there also be something other than gold that shows up in the wing triangle?
A black bird may be silver or gold based, but the wing triangle can still be black.

 

[ChicKat]

If I understand correctly - you are saying if the wing triangle - which is comprised of the secondaries - is barred with the gray (light gray/dark gray) as the standard calls for - but has light hackles and matching light saddles and an added (non-gray) color on the secondaries.

Wings: Fronts and Bows—dark gray, faintly barred, some chestnut permissible.
Coverts—gray, barred, tipped in cream
Primaries—dark gray, faintly barred, some white permissible.
Secondaries—dark gray, more clearly barred.

so I scooped this from the SOP on club's website - and it would lead me to believe that anything other than some permitted chestnut on the top of the wing would not be a fit to the standard for the Cream Legbar.


did I understand the question correctly?
ETA - or maybe it is the opposite....gray in secondaries only -- but different color hackles and saddles - so it wouldn't be a characteristic as we thing it would.

 

[ChicKat]

Summary 1

Thus far I think that we have established a few things. The upcoming 7-days, I will be in and out -- and I think that I will put summaries every so often in this thread so we can know where we are -

1. The Cream Legbar SOP is on the Cream Legbar Club's website - and as we go through this thread we can discuss type - along with pictures, (I have heard of a need for this but not seen deliverables of a pictured discussion readily available - if someone has - please let us know). That said - a judge had mentioned that there are some SOP areas that are unclear...should this thread uncover something that could be improved - I see no reason why it cannot be submitted to the SOP committee. (i,e something that would assist the judges with judging) Obviously the color would be the differentation of the new variety.

Here is a rendering that was done by Curtis Hale, president of the Cream Legbar Club for the existing SOP showing his ideals of the breed:

originally the image here was a draft - and is replaced 10/21/14 by the correct cockerel ideal that was developed by GaryDean26 --




oops, I only have the draft of ideal for cockerel, the white in the tail sickles was subsequently eliminated, I will replace the image when the other one is available -- couldn't find it at the time -- or if someone else has it please post.
Note above is GD26's chosen picture the draft image referred to was removed.




2. The variety - working name crele - would look like the coloration photos submitted by dretd, FlyingMonkeyPoop, sol2go and chicken pickin


[ 1 image removed 10-22-2014]

For the Crele female, we can use 'Lillian" on the website for now - but discussion is on going about the degree of barring on female and the gray females shown by chicken pickin are the contrast.

We are starting at the bottom up - and LEGS that are very yellow - may accompany the brown females - and the more colorful males.

soooo
Please check your chooks and see if you are seeing more deep dark yellow legs with more brown backs on females and coloration on males. - etc. and post your comments and photos accordingly.

3. We also MAY be seeing a different saddle color and hackle color in the non-cream variety-- probably need to check more chickens to verify. This week I will have limited access for awhile - I'll check in as often as possible- and I will post some CL pictures form the Texas State Fair where there were about 30 Cream Legbars in the contest - so those can be discussed as well...or if anyone else has them feel free to include in this discussion. Thanks!

 

[GaryDean26]

wonder if it is the same cockerel.......

Ya...That is why I posted him. In the champion row photo he appears lighter, but I guess that shows the effect of light and why you always have to discount color somewhat in photos.

 

[GaryDean26]

Summary 1

Thus far I think that we have established a few things. The upcoming 7-days, I will be in and out -- and I think that I will put summaries every so often in this thread so we can know where we are -

1. The Cream Legbar SOP is on the Cream Legbar Club's website - and as we go through this thread we can discuss type - along with pictures, (I have heard of a need for this but not seen deliverables of a pictured discussion readily available - if someone has - please let us know). That said - a judge had mentioned that there are some SOP areas that are unclear...should this thread uncover something that could be improved - I see no reason why it cannot be submitted to the SOP committee. (i,e something that would assist the judges with judging) Obviously the color would be the differentation of the new variety.

Here is a rendering that was done by Curtis Hale, president of the Cream Legbar Club for the existing SOP showing his ideals of the breed:

What Chickat posted was and very early draft of the cockerel. Here are the final versions that were released to the Cream Legbar Club.

With out seeing the original images I started with you may not be able to appreciated how much "idealization" was done. Looking at the early draft of the cockerel (which already had a lot of changes done), you can probably get an idea though.

 

[sol2go]

@ChicKat

I would omit the rooster photo I submitted, it is not an example of color or mismatched hackle/saddle.


To One and All:
At the risk of being very repetitive, are we in a hurry to develop an SOP for color, or do we have some time to produce more offspring with that in mind?
As most breeders have been trying to breed towards cream, I suppose there might be slightly different outcomes if we are trying to breed towards color; perhaps the parameters would change?
I do think some valuable components have been identified so far.

 

[ChicKat]

@ChicKat

I would omit the rooster photo I submitted, it is not an example of color or mismatched hackle/saddle.


To One and All:
At the risk of being very repetitive, are we in a hurry to develop an SOP for color, or do we have some time to produce more offspring with that in mind?
As most breeders have been trying to breed towards cream, I suppose there might be slightly different outcomes if we are trying to breed towards color; perhaps the parameters would change?
I do think some valuable components have been identified so far.

No I don't think that there is a hurry at all....there are years, -- I do think it is important that people with roosters that don't match the lightest looking ones have a place to discuss - rather than being told that their roosters are 'mutts' or what some of the other opinons in the cyber world were...LOL..... ;O) -- In that sense it is high time IMO...

when I get a chance I will go back and edit out your rooster...it may be a bit before I get there.

 

[ChicKat]

What Chickat posted was and very early draft of the cockerel. Here are the final versions that were released to the Cream Legbar Club.

With out seeing the original images I started with you may not be able to appreciated how much "idealization" was done. Looking at the early draft of the cockerel (which already had a lot of changes done), you can probably get an idea though.

Sorry - that was the one I could find...If you would prefer I will go back and edit it out .... let me know...:O)

 

[sol2go]

No I don't think that there is a hurry at all....there are years, -- I do think it is important that people with roosters that don't match the lightest looking ones have a place to discuss - rather than being told that their roosters are 'mutts' or what some of the other opinons in the cyber world were...LOL..... ;O) -- In that sense it is high time IMO...

when I get a chance I will go back and edit out your rooster...it may be a bit before I get there.

Thanks, that is helpful for me.
It doesn't help my coop situation...but I see colorful birds in my future.

Perhaps others have seen the Crele Penedesencas? They look very much like the more colorful Crested Legbars, except Penedesenca's have matching hackle and saddle feathers; both are lightweight birds but have different silhouettes.
Hangtown Farms is a key Penedesenca breeder, found on BYC and Facebook.
Here's a link to Jason's website and his Crele photos.
http://www.penedesencausa.com/crele.html