Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[dretd]

got some Legs and their colors -- I will post each bird in a separate post - these are females - and I know that the color variation is most obvious in the males -- but these two do have very differing colors...they aren't going to be used as breeders at all. so maybe a bad choice for discussion, they were in a trio I bought - but here goes:










I suspect the E-Locus on this pullet wasn't e+

I don't think this is an example of Crele pattern, It is more like lacing...very unusual - but for coloration - could have the colors for Crele? I don't know the parentage of this pullet - which is really weird for me - because I know who's mom & who's dad of my hatches.... These were purchased as part of a Trio.

Thoughts about your hen.

-I think leg color is going to be difficult to define other than to say yellow. Why so I think this? I have had many hens that start out with very vibrantly yellow legs (I describe it as Ronald MacDonald Yellow). After laying for a year, the best layers will lose most of the yellow color. So much that it can seem off-white in color. The diet can also drastically modify the leg color. My best/deepest yellows coming from girls that free range on green grass. I think you could probably standardize the color to some degree at a fixed age--like maybe 4-6 months. After that, its really a crap shoot depending on their laying frequency and diet. As a side note, if you see bright legs in your pullets, you may be able to zero in on your best layers by looking at the ones that have the most blanched legs at the end of the laying season without trap nesting.

-This first one really does look laced (a border of contrasting color around entire web of a feather) with a grey where as the main webs are taupe and barred. Interestingly, the British Standard for Gold Legars says " Body dark smoky or slaty grey-brown with indistinct barrings, the individual feathers showing paler shaft and slightly paler edging." I have one gold girl that has a fairly large border of pale gold around each taupe feather. I had been concerned until I read this standard. THe differences is that your girl appears to have a darker edging. But I wonder if some of that is due to the pronounced barring making the contrast seem very abrupt?

-Are you thinking that she is ?/e+...is it the lacing that is making you wonder or the hackles lacking the gold color in the striping? Or is there something else? She is not well marked for a Legbar, thats for certain.

-The breast looks very richly colored, which seems to be typical of the gold-tinted ones. It looks like what is described as a chestnut for Welsummers instead of the more pink-toned salmon. Maybe its the melanization darkening the salmon.

Probably a good call not breeding her although her ear lobes look nice and white!

I didn't grab the photo of the other one, but she seems to be better marked in many ways. She might be a candidate to test-breed with if she had some redeeming qualities you wanted to capture like really productive. I think you have better quality hens on your flock so I can see why you think she doesn't fit your breeding program.

Thanks for posting them!

 

[ChicKat]

Quote

"Are you thinking that she is ?/e+...is it the lacing that is making you wonder or the hackles lacking the gold color in the striping? Or is there something else? She is not well marked for a Legbar, thats for certain."

Yes, I think that she is very different from the Crele hen I would expect, either cream crele or darker crele. My best guess is a combination of things...and perhaps the dark feather edges are caused by excessive black pigment, but I think that the pattern gene is really active in there, and the pullet has a lot of different patterns going on.

Also thought that the Penedesenca pulled up from the site of Hangtown Farms - may not even have been a crele -- but more a Partridge-pattern if Penedesencas have a Partridge Pattern. I can look it up - but from the top of my head - that one is based on wheaten....

 

[ChicKat]

Just starting to catch up on a lot of these posts--- it will take a few days.

Regarding this photo by Sol2go

The gray chicks - have what looks like an almost white stripe on either side of their dark dorsal stripe. Interestingl it is one of the characteristics that Sigrid Van Dort attributes to silver-duckwing.
White-stripe = silver chick and gold stripe = gold chick -- Both the light stipes are males, and the determination was made in Punnett's writings that double barring lightenes gold even more in the male - so it could almost be (possibly) a sex-linked characteristic. I will try to check the ones in the brooder to day sepcifically for dorsal side stripe colors - to see if I have any correlations - but they may already be too old now. Cute chicks. Females definitely have more warm tones there...and the females have only one place on the S-Locus while the males can have two...right?

 

[ChicKat]

Just as dretd said the female legs are not an indication of the saturation - at least in these two sisters - as well.

the male...maybe - he is pretty saturated.

close up of the light and yellow legs:

both females raised on free-range





Male's legs -- I just got them here last night after dark...I will post - more/better pictures soon.

 

[ChicKat]

Speaking to a few points that were brought up:

FOR CRELE
short legs
I had 7 CL sisters (until the coyote attack greatly reduced their numbers).
There was a lot of variety including short legs. The short legs also came with fuller bodies; some small some large, but all fuller. Although we may want fuller bodies, it makes sense to me to stay with the legs as described for the Cream Legbars (not short).

yellow/orange color
ditto my remark about legs above; stay with yellow
However I think the photo of Lillian does over emphasize orange (even the breast feathers look orange instead of salmon) and the background color is probably intensifying that (since blue is the compliment or contrasting color to orange).

barring
I am in favor of more visible barring, as it seems to be one of the distinctive features in off-patterned CL's, even if their color is more correct; particularly in the hackle feathers of females. I have not seen it so much in my males. I wonder what the genetic factors are.

autosomal red
Including the red seems appropriate because it adds color to the crele pattern and is one of the factors that we try to eliminate in the Creams.

feather variations
Again, I think it would be worthwhile to take some time and breed away from the Cream and see what is most typical and distinctive in the variations to help support the drafting of a new SOP.

OTHER OPTIONS
white sports
Are so pretty and soft. They look great with the same yellow features as the CL's. I hope they can be accepted as a variation. Has anyone seen them in the rosecomb iteration?

rosecombs
Seem like a brilliant option. The crest looks so good, the faces are more visible, and it should offset comb problems that seem typical to the single combs. I don't think it helps offset the "waste" factor of the incorrect CL offspring. Perhaps it is yet another viable variety?

Not sure that this post by Sol2go got enough examination.

It seems that on the Crele-look - the barring is more distinct and more regular than some of the lightest males we have seen so degree of intensity in the barring could be another thing that shows a difference between the two varieties.

I'm thinking more and more it is a dark-gray and light-gray barring versus a black-and-white barring. If that may be enough with the other different attributes to easily identify another variety - the decision lies in the future.

Autosomal red can change a silver-looking chicken to a gold looking chicken. I suspect that it can change a gray-looking chicken to a brown-looking chicken. -- The other factors that can 'warm' the colors are the amount of sun on the feathers and the diet.

Regarding Sol2go's observation about interaction of crest and rose combs...any comments Michael?

I'm thinking of doing an experiment on the pullet with the white legs. They have been free-ranged together. Both people work in the household they went to - and down the street a man has dogs that he throws a bag of feed to once a week and doesn't come back. when the feed is gone - the dogs are on their own. The people who had them thought that they may be at risk - so I got them back. If I take the pullet with the white legs and record her back and wing feathers --- and then feed her Beta Carotene tablets...it will be a way to see if there is a forced yellowing of her legs -- and any effect on her feathers --- Easy enough to do between now and her sales date...I think.

 

[ChicKat]

That was my point on the other thread. I personally dislike the more barred hens, it is what makes the legbar females different than normal crele because there is just a hint of barring instead of obvious barring. Plus when we did crele OEGB and now crele phoenix bantams, the chicks always have head spots. The cockerel down is lighter but not always. In terms of the APA, people will see the name crele and compare them to the old english. And if the term crele is to be used, why not refer to the cream birds as cream crele? It would have saved tons of time to do the standard because in theory, they could have just used the SOP description for crele and changed the terms like gold/red to cream.

If you didn't see the postings referenced above -- here are the Crele Patterns that show up on OEGBs

above beautiful example posted by Chis 09 in different threads discussing Crele


Hatchery example - male Cackle Hatchery


Hatchery female - Cackle

chicks from above hatchery birds

awww - cute!
Above Bantams very melanized and what many folks think of as crele. so the intensity of the black versus the more slate-gray black of CL. Both are cuckoo-barring types rather than IMO the slow feather growing barring shone on BPR.

 

[ChicKat]

A point of information that may lead to an added need for developing an SOP for them is that Greenfire Farms has imported the true Gold Legbar -- the one without a crest and that lays white eggs.

Also any follow up if anyone knows for certain if in the UK they have separated the Cream Legbar SOP from the SOP of the gold and silver legbar.

 

[dretd]

A point of information that may lead to an added need for developing an SOP for them is that Greenfire Farms has imported the true Gold Legbar -- the one without a crest and that lays white eggs.

Also any follow up if anyone knows for certain if in the UK they have separated the Cream Legbar SOP from the SOP of the gold and silver legbar.

I wonder when they will release them for sale? I predict a nightmare trying to keep everything straight.Is this a non-crested gold-tinted Cream Legbar rooster or a Gold Legbar? Cant see the egg colors on the boys. Lots of accidental interbreeding. Major headache. And to what end? Why do they need to import so many varieties and breeds for sale instead of improving what they have? I am curious to see how gold/melanized/red they appear.


ChicKat, hopefully someone with firsthand knowledge of the PCGB British Poultry Standards book can take a physical look. It is a bit dear for me at this time so it will not appear on my shelf anytime soon. Here is a link to the Amazon uk site: http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Pou...s=British+poultry+standards#reader_1405156422

You can see the table of contents and the Autosexing Breeds (pg 53) are listed:
Legbar (pg 53)
Rhodebar (pg 56)
Welbar (pg 58)
Wybar (pg 60)

They are not breaking out the Cream Legbar from the Gold and Silver in the table of contents.

Previously I was able to do the search inside feature before but it wont let me now. It had the Cream Standard broken out from the Gold and Silver. I surmised that they listed it this way becasue the Cream is the only variety actively being shown and it was confusing that the three varieties were lumped together. Especially becasue the crest is present in the Cream Legbar. Members who have shown do appear to be confused themselves, or the judges confused, because the British Standard simply lists the crest as an afterthought saying: note: this is a crested variety laying a blue, green or olive egg. I think the crest was not listed in the main description of the type or variety becasue the three varieties share the same type and the Cream added to the other two varieties afterward. They did not change the initial two varieties but just added the cream on the end.

Walt Leonard, president of the APA did say the crest could be a variety indicator not breed (type). For instance in Silkies, you will have both bearded and non-bearded varieties. In Turkeys, turkey is the breed and all of what we normally call breeds of turkeys are actually varieties of the breed turkey. The weights between varieties can vary from 36 lbs to 21 lbs for old toms--so the weight is usually thought of as type but in the case of turkeys it is part of variety.

So I think they have broken the the three varieties out and listed the SOPs separately for ease of use and clarity, but it appears based on the table of contents that Legbar is still considered all one breed.

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks dretd.

so we are still going with:
Breed is legbar,

Variety: Cream - active and has a draft SOP - and idealized images, Varieties Gold and Silver - both white egg layers and crestless and precursors to the Cream but no activity in the USA at this time.

Possible variety - working name crele, lays blue eggs, and is crested == has more color than the idealized Cream in this thread we will try to examine the things that are different enough to see if it is a different variety -- such as silver-laced or gold-laced Wyandottes,for example, instantly recognizable.

Regarding Greenfire, I don't think that their business model is quite the same as those who focus on just one or two breeds and work for years to improve those breeds.

I think that they are working to research the earth for new, interesting, rare, and in some cases almost endangered breeds in order to make them available to those who do have a focus on the breed and wish to work with that breed for a number of years. Importing gold legbars will be interesting. I look forward to seeing them as well. -- Hopefully all goes well with their process and they will become available before too long.

Interesting about the turkeys...I never knew that!!

 

[ChicKat]

Thought that this was so interesting....if you can get hold of Sigrid Van Dort's book "Genetics of Chicken Colours" you will learn so much...it is an amazing and comprehensive book - high priced but well worth every cent. Ask your library to get it for your area...

On page 17 - she shows a photo of how the sun changes a chicken's plumage....
Here is a photo of her book with my computer screen in the background



The image nearest the camera is the example of sun-bleaching doing a color change on plumage and then the chicken - in this case a Ko-Shamo - rooster's saddles molting and showing the true colors...return to white and black in the new feathers.


Here I added pointers to show my rooster's newly grown feathers and his old sun-affected ones. Just thought it was fascinating to see the parallels.

In the book, I think Sigrid clears up a couple of things that were hovering here unanswered for us.

• She says that the barring patterns will vary with different breeds
• The correct name for our hobby name 'crele' would be "Duckwing Gold Partridge Cuckoo" -- Remember in Europe what is called Partridge is what we call Wild Type
• A lot of white in the cuckoo pattern shows fast growing feathers.
• The correct color name for the OEGB that look so saturated would be Duckwing Red Partridge Cuckoo-- or Red Crele -- because those birds have the Mahogany gene in their make up (Mh)

And to just restate - the Barred - like BPR expression of the barring gene doesn't have any fade in and fade out of grays..I think ours has some gray involved.

So quick refer back - the OEGB crele will be different from the Legbar crele due to the different breed, due to the feather growth, and IMO due to the more grays in Legbars and black and white in OEGBs. The saturation in OEGB is due to the Mahogany genes.

And adding to the mix - sun can yellow the hackles and saddles, and so can autosomal red, so these are variable colors on Legbars...depending to some degree upon envirionment (amount of UV light).