Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[flyingmonkeypoop]

Because of the sun, my colored birds look cream right now

 

[ChicKat]

Earlier we had spoken of two types of Legbar females.
to my eye - here are examples - albeit the first pass and not the best photos of the two types I see. I see one of them with shorter legs - looking more like the Lillian on the Club's website:

she is kind of silhouette in this picture-

shorter--and to my eye, less leghorn like.

The other type I see is:

I realize that because of the angles etc. it is apples and oranges, but this is the other type
legs are longer and body is less fluffy and puffy, more sleek. Anyone else see the same two types, or added types, or do you think these are the same?


In the first type, Proportioinately the legs are shorter, the neck looks shorter and the crest is bigger in the first look. I would like to see other's variations of types if you have them...just because I am curious...

Oh I have to add this too-- one of my hens molting is growing back her tail feathers with upward curls like duck feathers...thought it was amusing.

 

[ChicKat]

I had said that I would put in some multiple rooster coloration too---

Here is the first pass for that:

Lightest - Hatched in March


Youngest - and most colorful - hatched in May-- (mine tend to lighten as they age)

Eldest of the cockerels hatched in Apiril -

I think all would be designated as crele.

 

[dretd]

One thing brought up by a Judge at the Dallas show was that we would need to make sure that a second variety was distinctly different from the Cream. I thought I would post a cockerel that might be a good candidate for Crele roo. He is still pretty young--I can't remember when he hatched but I am thinking that he is 14-15 weeks.

Crele boy on the left , Cream boy on the right (21 weeks)

Crele boy in the front, different (least chestnut enhanced) Cream boy in the back (21 weeks)

For another comparison, my darkest (meaning most melanized Cream boy, hatch mate to the other 2 Cream roos shown) at 19 weeks:


So when I am looking at the difference between the Cream (white/light wing triangle), and Crele (gold barred wing triangle) I can see a very distinct difference between the boys. Although hard to pick up the subtleties in the photos, the saddles are distinctly different colors with the gold being browner/gold, the red/chestnut is much richer in the Crele and the hackles are also a gold/brassy color although this is much more subtle. The big question is how will this sit with the APA? Enough of a difference?

 

[dretd]

I had said that I would put in some multiple rooster coloration too---

Here is the first pass for that:

Lightest - Hatched in March


Youngest - and most colorful - hatched in May-- (mine tend to lighten as they age)

Eldest of the cockerels hatched in Apiril -

I think all would be designated as crele.

Chickat. Nice group of boys to look at, although it looks like you have the same problem that I have--getting them to settle down long enough to get a still shot. Most of my pictures end up being a running pose. From the Back. As they run away!. I cant really tell the wing triangle on the last one. Do you think he is Ig/ig or ig/ig? He actually looks like he could be ig/ig in this photo.

I think you have brought up some very important things for us to look at and moving forward with the alternative standard. Your roos are a bit lighter than what is traditionally thought of as Crele by the APA. I think that Cream Legbars in England were bred with an intention of having both Ig and ig birds conform to the standard which over time has made the non-ig/ig ones appear lighter and closer to the Cream Standard. We may need to breed away from the lighter non-ig/ig ones in the new variety so there is a better difference in color. I think it would be hard for a judge to look at your lightest one and at a glance know for sure which variety he would belong in. I see that he has more positive white in the tail. I wonder if that is a tell showing that the birds have more white (or rather less melanizers) in their genetic make up and making it harder to tell whether they are diluted by ig. So perhaps wording in the new standard limiting the amount of white in the sickles and wings?

The other important thing you brought up is that the birds do lighten over time. I pulled up my rooster Barnaby from last years hatch and then a recent photo of him a year later to see the difference. It is quite remarkable how much lighter he has become over time. If this trend is for all Legbars, it would really prove to be problematic for color differentiation. And may also be a reason why some of the birds are IMO way too light when I look at them. They started out perfect but really faded and I am merely seeing that fade. On that idea that you want a bird to by at 12 o'clock when you show him--Barnaby is so far past 12, he is on about hours 22 on a 24 hour clock:

Barnaby in Front this September--he is exactly 1 year old here (along with June 1st hatch cockerel who is marked a lot like Barnaby was 6 months ago). He's starting his molt so his sickles are gone.


Here he is on the left this April (6 months earlier). His breast was much darker, his hackle and saddle feathers were richer (they were obvious cream but now look off-white), he had obvious chestnut in his wings which has totally disappeared by September.


So looking at one picture can really be deceiving about what the rooster's genetics are! I am starting to think that there is a window from 4-8 months that will be a demonstration of what the birds natural color is and that after that, the environment will really modify the apparent colors and make them less reliable to 'read' the bird. In my situation, I live at about 5,000 feet and get over 300 days of sun a year, so while I get sunburned and turn red and gold, my chickens get fade to white in the light!

 

[ChicKat]

One thing brought up by a Judge at the Dallas show was that we would need to make sure that a second variety was distinctly different from the Cream. I thought I would post a cockerel that might be a good candidate for Crele roo. He is still pretty young--I can't remember when he hatched but I am thinking that he is 14-15 weeks.

Crele boy on the left , Cream boy on the right (21 weeks)

Crele boy in the front, different (least chestnut enhanced) Cream boy in the back (21 weeks)

For another comparison, my darkest (meaning most melanized Cream boy, hatch mate to the other 2 Cream roos shown) at 19 weeks:


So when I am looking at the difference between the Cream (white/light wing triangle), and Crele (gold barred wing triangle) I can see a very distinct difference between the boys. Although hard to pick up the subtleties in the photos, the saddles are distinctly different colors with the gold being browner/gold, the red/chestnut is much richer in the Crele and the hackles are also a gold/brassy color although this is much more subtle. The big question is how will this sit with the APA? Enough of a difference?

This is the real question/turning point -- and I think it may be a bit of time before we can get the answer -- I agree with the evals of the roosters...

It could be that the 'police' would not consider the one we are seeing as cream to be cream....but I think there would be an across the board agreement of the second example you have being crele. -- a dark crele.

Thinking of varieties--- the silver-laced Wyandotte and the gold laced Wyandotte are examples that come to mind for me. They have a genetic difference Silver versus Gold on the S-Locus right? And have a very visible difference. --

Following: some chicken photos from google search.





So, same breed, distinct visual differences in the plumage, (hence different varities) and we know that there is a genetic difference. Of course the APA doesn't have a look into the genetics - it is just in the show cage the appearance of the chicken - - - But these are pretty obvious.

To say we have a different variety- we would need to have different genetics. As such - we would have in effect - I guess the Ig/Ig for the new variety - or possibly the Ig/ig. Seems that there is no way to 'prove' the genetics-- unless a lot of test breeding is done--but test breeding assumes knowledge of the inherent genetics of both test parents. ---

The other area to explore here - of course, is -- could something like autosomal red - take a chicken that is ig/ig - and darken it to the appearance of a chicken that is Ig/ig or Ig/Ig....... and I'm not sure exactly how you would prove that...

Like the silver game rooster listed earlier in this thread that is more golden than some of the Cream Legbars that have been called gold. So the effects of red (article liink in one of the first posts in this thread - to article by Grant Brereton) need to be brought into consideration.....

Bottom line - I think that APA wants to see a definite separation in the varities. The white-looking CLs versus the ones that have color would be a separation. IMO -- we will have to develop this alternative standard - and when we have it solidified, we will need to run it past the APA to see what their view is. Does that make sense to you? (all y'all) :O)

 

[ChicKat]

Chickat. Nice group of boys to look at, although it looks like you have the same problem that I have--getting them to settle down long enough to get a still shot. Most of my pictures end up being a running pose. From the Back. As they run away!. I cant really tell the wing triangle on the last one. Do you think he is Ig/ig or ig/ig? He actually looks like he could be ig/ig in this photo.

That was the day he ran away-- into the woods, and I thought I wouldn't see him again - but got him back in the afternoon. LOL

His yellow legs are behind the wings---so it is a bit difficult - but I think that there is more than just light and dark gray in his wings...so I think that he wouldn't qualify as 'cream' certainly to some people...LOL -- you may have to right click to see photo enlarged.......by opening in a new tab or window.

I think you have brought up some very important things for us to look at and moving forward with the alternative standard. Your roos are a bit lighter than what is traditionally thought of as Crele by the APA. I think that Cream Legbars in England were bred with an intention of having both Ig and ig birds conform to the standard which over time has made the non-ig/ig ones appear lighter and closer to the Cream Standard. We may need to breed away from the lighter non-ig/ig ones in the new variety so there is a better difference in color. I think it would be hard for a judge to look at your lightest one and at a glance know for sure which variety he would belong in. I see that he has more positive white in the tail. I wonder if that is a tell showing that the birds have more white (or rather less melanizers) in their genetic make up and making it harder to tell whether they are diluted by ig. So perhaps wording in the new standard limiting the amount of white in the sickles and wings?

Perhaps - but all mine have white in the sickles.. I think that my males are (according to the skulls) fairly prepotent - and that is a trait that will be inherited - along with a LOT of the others---the sons seem to replicate the roosters farily closely.

The other important thing you brought up is that the birds do lighten over time. I pulled up my rooster Barnaby from last years hatch and then a recent photo of him a year later to see the difference. It is quite remarkable how much lighter he has become over time. If this trend is for all Legbars, it would really prove to be problematic for color differentiation. And may also be a reason why some of the birds are IMO way too light when I look at them. They started out perfect but really faded and I am merely seeing that fade. On that idea that you want a bird to by at 12 o'clock when you show him--Barnaby is so far past 12, he is on about hours 22 on a 24 hour clock:

LOL - Barnaby is really light in the photo of his 1-year birthday. Usually the males I have get darker breasts at about 1-year too...so it could be that for CLs their adult plumage comes in at 1-year....and that would make the cockerels in a show and the roosters divergent. A good thing. Barnaby is so light that he could qualify for the 'police' standards I'm certain. One thing I question with a rooster of that appearance is if it is truly the Ig-genetics that differ or if it is something else like the S-locus or the E-locus - or perhaps no autosomal red at all??

Barnaby in Front this September--he is exactly 1 year old here (along with June 1st hatch cockerel who is marked a lot like Barnaby was 6 months ago). He's starting his molt so his sickles are gone.


Here he is on the left this April (6 months earlier). His breast was much darker, his hackle and saddle feathers were richer (they were obvious cream but now look off-white), he had obvious chestnut in his wings which has totally disappeared by September.


So looking at one picture can really be deceiving about what the rooster's genetics are! I am starting to think that there is a window from 4-8 months that will be a demonstration of what the birds natural color is and that after that, the environment will really modify the apparent colors and make them less reliable to 'read' the bird. In my situation, I live at about 5,000 feet and get over 300 days of sun a year, so while I get sunburned and turn red and gold, my chickens get fade to white in the light!

That is so interesting too, because my chickens will get more golden on the white feathers....my BPRs turned from black and white to mahogany and what I would call cream, perhaps some would call buff... It seems to happen all at once too -- right at the end of summer.....very strange....tough too - because it is their old feathers. I have one rooster now in molt that is multi-colored in the hackle.

I thought that tail feathers were the last part of molt-- which would make Barnaby's feathers his new feathers.... It is really confusing. We need to dig into this a lot deeper. Thanks so much for posting the comparatives of Barnaby-- you could almost think it was two different roosters based on color. I realize that we are dealing with the handicap of photos, lighting conditions etc...But there is a big contrast.

Like others here -- FMP for example - I think if I had one get as light as Barnaby ( at one year old) - I would pass him along to someone who wants to breed for the lightest...and I would keep the ones that look more like Barnaby at 6-months.

sorry to be absent from the threads-- I was traveling - and then got sick -- ilch.... But trying to get caught up now. :O)

ETA - so to differentiate the varieties, a judge could open the wings and look for a possible third color - as shown here if you open that wing shot in a full page window..... Perhaps that is too much fine tuning for the APA to differentiate. Add to that if a rooster is 'boarder-line' on coloration as that one possibly IS, does that make it really really difficult for a judge?

 

[sol2go]

Hi All,

catching up on my reading and some quick comments.

ROOSTERS
The visual differences that stand out for me are:
the cream (white) vs crele (gold) wing triangles - that's an easy tell for DQ at a show
cream - matching hackle and saddle feathers, with allowance for a range from white to buttery
crele - mismatched hackle and saddle feathers, with substantially darker saddle feathers
cream - minimal ginger/chestnut across back
crele - substantial ginger/chestnut across back

The discussion of barring and grey are less clear for me.
If the crele has heavy barring and lots of color, and the cream has grey barring and less color, that would be the maximum visual difference.
But if they both have heavy / dark barring on the chest I think the differences (think black and white photo) become less obvious. How to distinguish the females will be more difficult I think, especially with the introduction of the Gold Legbar.

I think the way the pullets and cockerels seem to change appearance as they mature makes it really interesting as a breeder. Maybe not so interesting if you are trying to judge a poultry show...I'm not sure it is accurate to use the 4-8 months period as a good breed standard, especially since I hear over and over again that 1) all birds change as they mature, 2) birds are shown at all ages, and 3) breeders watch how their birds age to project the future of their offspring. Again, I think time is what we need.

I recently attended the Ventura Poultry Show and spent some time peering at beautiful crele feather patterns. I have to admit, the crele with 3 colors on a feather is really pretty. It was usually a "white" with a hint of "gold/red" and black. Without all 3 colors, it looks more like the pattern on the hackle feathers of a silver or gold duckwing OEGB. It was also easy to notice the visual texture of the body feathers if it was uniform ie stippling, mossy, ?

By the way, I don't see the need to call Crele by the lengthy European Partridge reference, especially since the females are wildtype and not partridge.

Hope to keep up with all of the postings, "you" get a lot done!

 

[sol2go]

Because of the sun, my colored birds look cream right now

Hi!
So you are saying the hackle and saddle are fading not getting more yellow?
Or maybe you are referencing different breeds?

 

[GaryDean26]

Hi All,

catching up on my reading and some quick comments.

ROOSTERS
The visual differences that stand out for me are:
the cream (white) vs crele (gold) wing triangles - that's an easy tell for DQ at a show
cream - matching hackle and saddle feathers, with allowance for a range from white to buttery
crele - mismatched hackle and saddle feathers, with substantially darker saddle feathers [GD26] - Think these need to match on crele birds too.

crele - substantial ginger/chestnut across back

Also...I looked up the Gold Legbars standard (available HERE on page 54) and both the neck hackles and saddles are described as "Pale Straw" for the Gold Legbars. I also looked up photos of the Old English Game Bantams and those Crele birds also have matching saddles and hackles although they are NOT a pale straw but more chestnut color.