Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[nicalandia]

I guess I'm asking, has anyone seen a double cream male CL with color in the wing triangle?
I realize there is a distinctive difference for silver vs gold in the wing triangle, utilizing the concept of duck wing.
Might there also be something other than gold that shows up in the wing triangle?
A black bird may be silver or gold based, but the wing triangle can still be black.

White does shows when a s+/s+ B/B males is not red enhanced, so yes e+/e+ s+/s+ B/B ig/ig can have white wing triangle

 

[nicalandia]

here is a female Penedesenca from random internet search



here is a really nice shot of a female from the Hangtown Farms link provided by Sol2Go-- showing that the female doesn't have salmon breast and has a pattern. so salmon female plumage doesn't seem to tie to red shoulder on the male (if there is a relation between these two Penedensencas.)

For the females of the new color variety - salmon breast would be a requirement for autosexing. I think I read on the Penedesenca link that their autosexing is determined by head spot. No mention of chipmnk stripes as I recall. The females here would be very different - but the males - except for the legs and crestlessness are very similar.

I see you guys are shooting in the dark here, that or those females carry eb/eb instead of wildtype e+, thats why they dont have a salmon breast, crele penedesencas are autosexing because eb/eb B/B males have larger heaspot than females and are lighter in color, eb/eb B/- females do have a mark headspot but its much smaller and they are darker in chick down to males, I thought we have covered this before guys...!

 

[nicalandia]

It seems more needs to be known about the DNA of the colors involved here.

no DNA need it here guys, just a keen eye for genetics

 

[dretd]

The barring patterns however are virtually identical - and there isn't a lighter gray and darker gray---so I'm thinking that one isn't going to be a true qualifier for the different varieties. Part of our problem is that a lot of Legbar males have nearly white hackles and still maintain a warmer - richer color in the saddles..... They aren't really a match to gold or silver examples...they are almost like a split of them.

If I think of where we are.... I would say this is a light cream legbar example of color:

Foreground chicken - very light

versus

Regarding the foreground chicken - has darker - more cream coloration - I think it the UK and some other places it would be designated as 'gold' ---

Of course you recognize these are both the same cockerel - from dretd's earlier post.....and dretd said that this may be the coloration of crele:

foreground chicken as true Crele. The above chicken has a more gold wing triangle - but it doesn't match the gold wing-triangle (aka brown) of the gold Crele Legbar which is very dark. The earlier two match the wing triangle of the silver Crele Legbar.

so will a white wing triangle be another designation of a 'cream' - and a non-white be a designation of a crele (or a barred wing triangle)--- The Leghorns didn't dilute wing triangle for gold due to barring as some have thought would be the case. It will be very interesting to see if the gold Legbar when premiered will have the brown wing triangle...of the gold Crele Leghorn. It seems that the birds should look almost identical....

Just trying to catch up--I've been too busy to keep up lately.

ChicKat--could you elaborate on the above post you made because I am confused. You first state that the top photo is an example of a very light Cream Legbar male (foreground), then post the next photo commenting that the male in the foreground is more Cream and that some folks would say that he is really Gold (non-cream) then acknowledge finally that they are the same chicken! If 12 o'clock noon is when you want to show a chicken, top photo he is at about 11PM and bottom photo is at about 11 am. ie He could be shown in the bottom but not in top.

What confuses me is the point that you are trying to make regarding color. Since they are the same chicken, how can he be an example of both an overly light and a 'gold' tinted Cream Legbar?

I think he is a very good example of how 6 months difference of life (sun exposure and the elements, maturity and wear and tear) not to mention camera, lighting etc.. will change the appearance of the same bird. Quite obviously he cant be simultaneously too light and not cream. Personally, I think he is very well balanced in the color arena and probably fairly close to the standard. He is ig/ig confirmed through test matings to 'gold' CL hens. I do think that this is one example of the dangers of basing standards and forming opinions about chickens based on one or two photos, something that I see as a serious problem as we try to move forward with assessing breed color to inform possible changes/additions to standards.

 

[dretd]

Quote:
Welcome back to the boards, Nicalandia--its good to have you here again!

 

[nicalandia]

Welcome back to the boards, Nicalandia--its good to have you here again!

its good to be back, seems like some people have forgoten what I have said in the past.

 

[dretd]

Quote: I do want to make a comment on crest color. There is already an SOP that incorporates the darker crested ones. The current standard calls for Crest: Cream and Grey. It doesn't specify the color of grey nor does it weight Cream as predominating. Cream is listed first, yes, but if the standard wanted to have cream predominate it would have said just that, or would have specified light grey, slate grey etc. Sort of like when I get mail addressed to Mr and Mrs Duggan--just because my hubby's Mr comes first, doesn't mean he is more important than me

As you have pointed out, a darker crest does predominate in the US. Not sure of the numbers, but I would have to say the vast majority. The SOP Committee has no intention of changing the Cream SOP at this time with regard to crest coloration wording. The lighter cream crest will be a breeder preference and will not be put into the standard to help differentiate it from a Crele variety. From my perspective, deciding to cull based on crest color when it is not specified would be like selecting your wedding cake based on a picture with lavender flowers instead of violet flowers in the icing decorations and skipping the tasting the cake itself. Its pretty far down on my radar right now. I am more focused on size of crest and tail angles and productivity and any one of a number of other factors. Of course I don't have any light colored crests in any of my flock from 3 different breeders. I might decide to add that in if I had it to work with but wont be going out of my way to obtain the genetics. If the standard were to change and say light silver grey and cream crest and we get too specific with other colors I might actually get discouraged and toss in the towel on breeding to the standard. Its hard enough as it is without getting hyper-specific on a minor element.

The original British standard calls for (identical wording in both male and female) Crest cream and grey, some chestnut permissible. IMO there is no way even a light colored female crest could be the same color as any males because of the differences in double barring and lacing yet that is the way the standard is written. There is obviously quite a lot of interpretation left up to nature and the breeder.

Now the judge will say that they want more specifics and detail to help them judge, but IMO Cream Legbars are a utility breed and the less specific we are about things, the more flexibility the breeders have to focus on the more important elements of the breed like autosexing and productivity--not something the APA really cares about but are integral to the breed.

That being said, I do think that it is vital to get the Cream Legars accepted into the APA so that a standard is preserved for all future generations and the tastes of the successive generations of breeders don't morph the breed to an unrecognizable entity!

 

[ChicKat]

Just trying to catch up--I've been too busy to keep up lately.

ChicKat--could you elaborate on the above post you made because I am confused. You first state that the top photo is an example of a very light Cream Legbar male (foreground), then post the next photo commenting that the male in the foreground is more Cream and that some folks would say that he is really Gold (non-cream) then acknowledge finally that they are the same chicken! If 12 o'clock noon is when you want to show a chicken, top photo he is at about 11PM and bottom photo is at about 11 am. ie He could be shown in the bottom but not in top.

What confuses me is the point that you are trying to make regarding color. Since they are the same chicken, how can he be an example of both an overly light and a 'gold' tinted Cream Legbar?

I think he is a very good example of how 6 months difference of life (sun exposure and the elements, maturity and wear and tear) not to mention camera, lighting etc.. will change the appearance of the same bird. Quite obviously he cant be simultaneously too light and not cream. Personally, I think he is very well balanced in the color arena and probably fairly close to the standard. He is ig/ig confirmed through test matings to 'gold' CL hens. I do think that this is one example of the dangers of basing standards and forming opinions about chickens based on one or two photos, something that I see as a serious problem as we try to move forward with assessing breed color to inform possible changes/additions to standards.

Please don't think in any way I was dismissing your chickens. LOL -- What you stated was exactly my point. If you were to show your 11 o'clock picture to the police - dollars for donughts they would tell you it is gold.... I betcha. That is my point. Chickens labled 'gold' quite possibly are not.

Sorry I didn't make it clearer.... Point proven by the same chicken at a later time.

 

[chambe94]

"The Police" seem to be people with very little knowledge in chicken breeding and showing. Since they lack the skill/knowledge to evaluate a bird based on more important qualities, they focus on color - the only thing they can wrap their petty little mind around. For this reason I tend to ignore them ( though I do enjoy overcharging them for my crappy birds with "good color" if they really tick me off).

 

[sol2go]

I do want to make a comment on crest color. There is already an SOP that incorporates the darker crested ones. The current standard calls for Crest: Cream and Grey. It doesn't specify the color of grey nor does it weight Cream as predominating.
<edited>

As you have pointed out, a darker crest does predominate in the US. Not sure of the numbers, but I would have to say the vast majority. The SOP Committee has no intention of changing the Cream SOP at this time with regard to crest coloration wording. The lighter cream crest will be a breeder preference and will not be put into the standard to help differentiate it from a Crele variety.
<edited>

The original British standard calls for (identical wording in both male and female) Crest cream and grey, some chestnut permissible. IMO there is no way even a light colored female crest could be the same color as any males because of the differences in double barring and lacing yet that is the way the standard is written. There is obviously quite a lot of interpretation left up to nature and the breeder.

<edited>

To dretd, and others who may have input:

Is anyone seeing dark crests with softly barred grey hackle feathers?

While I do not see it stated in the proposed SOP for the Cream Legbar, there has been some discussion that the crest on a hen should closely match the hackle color.

Is it possible to have a dark crest match the hackle color, and not be what has been characterized as overly melanized?

It seems as though the lighter crests and hackle, ie grey and cream in whatever proportion or saturation might occur, is yet different from a dark crest.

Or maybe someone else thinks of a dark crest as tending towards chestnut?

Pictures seem helpful if anyone has examples to clarify their position.
Thanks.