Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[sol2go]

Some crest and hackle examples. I tried to contribute some variety that I am seeing; whether it is offspring from my foundation hens, or new pullets I have added from other breeding programs. I have sourced Cream Legbars from 5 different "breeders", some in California, some not. As far as I know, I don't have any from Jordan Farms, or the new Jill Rees line. In some cases I have been told which GFF line they are from, but maybe not reliably so.

If someone needs more info or pics, please pm me; ie source, age in photo, down colors/patterns, etc. Sorry if you have seen some of these before.

I generally take the photos out of the direct sun, with no flash. I hatch eggs from hens that are atleast a year old.

Heavily melanized everywhere, no crest (without getting into a total evaluation). Her name is Cookie because she has "chocolate chips" on her salmon feathers. She had a sister who was less melanized and crested, and another who was a fully crested white sport. She lays a lovely blue egg and is a good broody momma.


Colby, the upper pullet, has a dark crest and a gold hackle that seemed to fade to cream.
Clara, the lower pullet, has a dark crest which extends into the cream hackle color (melanized?). I would think the hackle is heavier and/or darker than the SOP calls for.


Clara again as a pullet. (Showing nice yellow legs as a pullet, which definitely faded with age.)


Clara's wild child Delilah; her chest feathers had been completely charcoal until a week prior to this pic.
Her crest is a dark grey with gold hackles and dark barring.


CeeCee, cream hen, softly barred hackles, cream and grey crest. She decided to get some relief from the rooster and went broody after this, also a good momma.


CeeCee's young daughters, Daphne (gold, on the left) and Daisy (Cream, on the right); from same cock bird as Delilah.
Both have "matching" crest and hackles, which are softly barred grey, (pale feet).
Daphne has a grey and gold crest, gold hackles that fade at the bottom.
Daisy has a cream crest with some grey and chestnut?, a cream hackle that has darker barring at the bottom.
I took this today; the greenery is evidence of a recent rain (yea!).


Cashmere, a very young cream pullet, who is grey everywhere so far...not showing melanization or gold or chestnut...salmon chest feathers are just developing.


Her sister Cashka, maybe 1/2 sister...started out with very red down. I think she is something beyond gold and chestnut? Maybe not overly melanized, waiting to see how things progress.
(Two brothers are visible in the background).


I think I am out of words...

 

[ChicKat]

Some crest and hackle examples. I tried to contribute some variety that I am seeing; whether it is offspring from my foundation hens, or new pullets I have added from other breeding programs. I have sourced Cream Legbars from 5 different "breeders", some in California, some not. As far as I know, I don't have any from Jordan Farms, or the new Jill Rees line. In some cases I have been told which GFF line they are from, but maybe not reliably so.

If someone needs more info or pics, please pm me; ie source, age in photo, down colors/patterns, etc. Sorry if you have seen some of these before.

I generally take the photos out of the direct sun, with no flash. I hatch eggs from hens that are atleast a year old.

Heavily melanized everywhere, no crest (without getting into a total evaluation). Her name is Cookie because she has "chocolate chips" on her salmon feathers. She had a sister who was less melanized and crested, and another who was a fully crested white sport. She lays a lovely blue egg and is a good broody momma.


Colby, the upper pullet, has a dark crest and a gold hackle that seemed to fade to cream.
Clara, the lower pullet, has a dark crest which extends into the cream hackle color (melanized?). I would think the hackle is heavier and/or darker than the SOP calls for.


Clara again as a pullet. (Showing nice yellow legs as a pullet, which definitely faded with age.)


Clara's wild child Delilah; her chest feathers had been completely charcoal until a week prior to this pic.
Her crest is a dark grey with gold hackles and dark barring.


CeeCee, cream hen, softly barred hackles, cream and grey crest. She decided to get some relief from the rooster and went broody after this, also a good momma.


CeeCee's young daughters, Daphne (gold, on the left) and Daisy (Cream, on the right); from same cock bird as Delilah.
Both have "matching" crest and hackles, which are softly barred grey, (pale feet).
Daphne has a grey and gold crest, gold hackles that fade at the bottom.
Daisy has a cream crest with some grey and chestnut?, a cream hackle that has darker barring at the bottom.
I took this today; the greenery is evidence of a recent rain (yea!).


Cashmere, a very young cream pullet, who is grey everywhere so far...not showing melanization or gold or chestnut...salmon chest feathers are just developing.


Her sister Cashka, maybe 1/2 sister...started out with very red down. I think she is something beyond gold and chestnut? Maybe not overly melanized, waiting to see how things progress.
(Two brothers are visible in the background).


I think I am out of words...

What an amazing diversity of combinations. Wow - that is the widest variety I have seen. :O)-- You are officially the 'go to' person for variations. ;O)

Thanks for posting the pictures.......

 

[chambe94]

Some observations as I took my picks: The ones with blacker crests (which I don't like as much), seem to have less brown to their body. Wondering if this is due to melanizers, or???, or are they just different (this is comparing cream hackles to cream hackles, not gold to cream).

Also, I noticed the roosters from this Rees group (I will get pics of them later, it's 14 degrees and blizzarding this AM) are very nice colored. No red to be seen. But I don't like the coloringon their sisters as much (too many melanizers for my tastes). I am wondering if the genetics that produce good colored boys don't necessarily lead to the best colored girls? Are we selecting for colorations that will require two different rooster vs hen lines?

Here are girls:
My second favorite color wise. You can seen the crest is definitely darker, but she has no brown in her body.

My favorite color-wise, lighter crest than above, but still darker than the hackles. She has quite a bit of barring in her body though. I've never noticed that on others. What does that mean?


50 Shades of Grey...or 3. The one on the left is moderately melaized, middle heavily melanized, right the least. Like the one on the right the best, but her creast is currently darker than I like. We'll see how she finishes out. I guess this shoots my melanized = less brown theory, I just noticed how much brown there is on the middle bird. I will have to go look at her in person....


One of my original girls who is more gold. But a much lighter crest. I wonder if the lack of melanizers allows the red to show through more.


Two creams with moderate melanin. The bigger one is actually lighter, but the lighting is awkward here (see note about blizzard).


Kind of shows how the darker melainzed ones don't show brown on the body.

My favorite of my original girls. Her body has more brown, but she is definitely cream in the hackles.


My lightest of all


Just kidding, she is some random silkie cross, but she likes to pretend she is a legbar But she is a good example of how you can have a very melanized crest and still have very light hackles.

 

[nicalandia]

as I said before, you guys are dealing with recessive/dominant melanizers here,

here is my good old friend Wieslaw he made a brown leghorn cross to a Black leghorn rooster and F1xF1 gave him alot of e+/e+ hens with melanizers, same as how the Brassy back OEG was created(isolating melanizers from the Black OEG x BBR OEG cross)

here are a few pics and source> http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=89474&page=all

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/wieslawl59/Mottled and Melanized/Kury052.jpg

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/wieslawl59/Mottled and Melanized/Kury054.jpg

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/wieslawl59/Mottled and Melanized/P1010111.jpg

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/wieslawl59/Mottled and Melanized/P1010113.jpg

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/wieslawl59/Mottled and Melanized/brassyback.jpg

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/wieslawl59/Mottled and Melanized/P1010048.jpg

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/wieslawl59/Mottled and Melanized/P1010114.jpg

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/wieslawl59/Mottled and Melanized/P1010115.jpg

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/wieslawl59/Mottled and Melanized/P1010010.jpg

 

[nicalandia]

she is some random silkie cross, but she likes to pretend she is a legbar But she is a good example of how you can have a very melanized crest and still have very light hackles.

Melanizers cant enhance pheomelanin so they are not related

 

[sol2go]

What an amazing diversity of combinations. Wow - that is the widest variety I have seen. :O)-- You are officially the 'go to' person for variations. ;O)

Thanks for posting the pictures.......

...that's a good thing?!??

 

[ChicKat]

...that's a good thing?!??

it's good, it's good -- it's always all good...however it is not without problems and challenges for the breed. as I see it.

The reason for that is, somewhere I came to the conclusion that the APA puts very high merit in flocks that are very homogenous. With that much diversity in your flock - you will probably have to select a direction and follow it....which you probably already know. Ideally at a poultry show - with one glance someone says - Oh look there are the Legbars (or what ever breed is on display)

With that much diversity - you have a lot of traits to select from - (a two-edged sword maybe)--

For example, your Cashmere - a very striking and beautiful pullet, but totally unlike any CL pullet that I have ever seen before. As you say - she is in the process of growing out - and once she gets mature feathers - may look more like the 'average' CL -- but right now - to my eye she doesn't. Even if she were to stay exactly like that to adulthood...it could be that due to type, egg color, size, egg frequency or other characteristics she may be a star in your breeding program and produce offspring that fit the SOP to a T. She certainly shows no reds/golds in her plumage at this point, and as you said is just now getting her salmon...... It is way too early to know how she will look as a mature hen. That being said - if I was walking down a row of cages at a poultry show and I saw one like that I would wonder if it truly was a CL. (maybe I don't have enough knowledge?)---- The word cookie-cutter comes to mind when I think of the APA and others referring to a wonderful flock. Have you had thoughts along those lines?

 

[chambe94]

Melanizers cant enhance pheomelanin so they are not related

That's what I've been saying (or rather illustrating).

 

[sol2go]

Some observations as I took my picks: The ones with blacker crests (which I don't like as much), seem to have less brown to their body. Wondering if this is due to melanizers, or???, or are they just different (this is comparing cream hackles to cream hackles, not gold to cream).

Also, I noticed the roosters from this Rees group (I will get pics of them later, it's 14 degrees and blizzarding this AM) are very nice colored. No red to be seen. But I don't like the coloringon their sisters as much (too many melanizers for my tastes). I am wondering if the genetics that produce good colored boys don't necessarily lead to the best colored girls? Are we selecting for colorations that will require two different rooster vs hen lines?

Here are girls:
My second favorite color wise. You can seen the crest is definitely darker, but she has no brown in her body.

My favorite color-wise, lighter crest than above, but still darker than the hackles. She has quite a bit of barring in her body though. I've never noticed that on others. What does that mean?


50 Shades of Grey...or 3. The one on the left is moderately melaized, middle heavily melanized, right the least. Like the one on the right the best, but her creast is currently darker than I like. We'll see how she finishes out. I guess this shoots my melanized = less brown theory, I just noticed how much brown there is on the middle bird. I will have to go look at her in person....


One of my original girls who is more gold. But a much lighter crest. I wonder if the lack of melanizers allows the red to show through more.


Two creams with moderate melanin. The bigger one is actually lighter, but the lighting is awkward here (see note about blizzard).


Kind of shows how the darker melainzed ones don't show brown on the body.

My favorite of my original girls. Her body has more brown, but she is definitely cream in the hackles.


My lightest of all


Just kidding, she is some random silkie cross, but she likes to pretend she is a legbar But she is a good example of how you can have a very melanized crest and still have very light hackles.

Thanks for your notes, pics, braving the storm, and mixing it up for us =) The last pullet cracks me up! I like the dark crest and barring examples. The body color is so subtle I find it hard to photograph. Your original girl with gold was just in the perfect lighting to really see all her body patterns.
How did everyone fair today? Lots of snow?

 

[sol2go]

it's good, it's good -- it's always all good...however it is not without problems and challenges for the breed. as I see it.

The reason for that is, somewhere I came to the conclusion that the APA puts very high merit in flocks that are very homogenous. With that much diversity in your flock - you will probably have to select a direction and follow it....which you probably already know. Ideally at a poultry show - with one glance someone says - Oh look there are the Legbars (or what ever breed is on display)

With that much diversity - you have a lot of traits to select from - (a two-edged sword maybe)--

For example, your Cashmere - a very striking and beautiful pullet, but totally unlike any CL pullet that I have ever seen before. As you say - she is in the process of growing out - and once she gets mature feathers - may look more like the 'average' CL -- but right now - to my eye she doesn't. Even if she were to stay exactly like that to adulthood...it could be that due to type, egg color, size, egg frequency or other characteristics she may be a star in your breeding program and produce offspring that fit the SOP to a T. She certainly shows no reds/golds in her plumage at this point, and as you said is just now getting her salmon...... It is way too early to know how she will look as a mature hen. That being said - if I was walking down a row of cages at a poultry show and I saw one like that I would wonder if it truly was a CL. (maybe I don't have enough knowledge?)---- The word cookie-cutter comes to mind when I think of the APA and others referring to a wonderful flock. Have you had thoughts along those lines?

I think predictable is the word that comes to mind. I don't know how else individuals in a breed/variety could be judged against each other. To stand at a poultry show of any size, and watch the judges work the room, is exhausting and I'm not even doing anything. I think they must have some sort of mental reference of not only the SOP of a particular breed/variety, but also of every bird of that type that they have ever seen. The process actually becomes very nuanced once the basics have been met. Which I suppose is true of many of the finer things in life.

I also think it helps when a breeder is competing with several birds of one breed/variety for the judges to look at. I would suppose that helps to reinforce the quality and type of that breeders line. When all of the breeders birds look great, then judges get to pick the one they like the best, as compared to having to eliminate many of the entries for lack of the basics.

So, I think it is valuable for our club to work on the basics, so we can get to a point that is more nuanced. As you pointed out, I'm a great example of diversity, so I have a lot of basics to work on =) It will be nice to get to the point that I'm trying to get a shorter beak or rounder head or unbroken body curve or whatever the nuanced item is.