Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

Out of your chart of percentages, the two middle rows look too light to me. Out of all of them, the 50% male and 50% and 100% females are what I would consider 'crele'.
For the sake of doing a written color standard, why doesn't someone just use the cream standard and swap out some color words?

Interesting.

Rather than basing the crele SOP on the existing Draft of the Cream SOP - which is based on the UK Silver Legbar standard - with the word cream substituted for silver in that standard, I project that the standard for Crele will use the UK Gold legbar standard as a basis, it seems more clear, accurate and includes more detail. All three are available earlier in this thread.

 

[ChicKat]

If the indicator (male) for a Cream Legbar is secondaries that contain only gray or gray dark & light,

Perhaps the indicator for Crele (male) should be tri-colored secondaries.




This would be easy for casual chicken raiser, pro-chicken keeper and judges to ascertain in seconds to put the bird in one or the other category.

My sweet old guy - just collapsed in the sun today when I happened to have the camera in the pens.

 

[ChicKat]

After saying that all legbars should have the same type, I figured I should clarify because I have a feeling someone will mention it. All legbars in the US should match up with the standard for the 'cream legbars' in type. Sure, Greenfire may have/may be importing gold legbars but I really don't think they will take off anything like the legbars we all have.

Glad you brought this up - I didn't see it before.

If you are thinking that the match to 100% gold Leghorn should depict Crele Legbar - then it is a gold Legbar plus crest and blue eggs...... It seems to me that not everyone wants to go that gold...but it is an option of course.... We would then just copy the Gold Legbar UK standard in its entirety and add crest and blue eggs to that SOP, then translate the wording to APA lingo.

Spot on about the ease of writing the coloration of the White recessive--- providing that 1. The autosexing will continue for many generations and 2. Enough people have an interest.

I see Crele as not Gold Legbar Gold, but rather the Legbars that were kicked out of Legbar land and their owners told they were "mutts" due to coloration......Would you expect the brown (gold) wing triangle show in the diagram on the new variety? If the ones on the chart that are in the bottom row are 'true Cream' - - and the Rees line at GFF is toward the ideal CL, then perhaps the middle row is Crele.

Jill Rees line is on the the Cream Legbar Club Website - History of the CL in the USA as well as on Greenfire Farms website.

People who didn't want to have that exact Rees line look and had invested themselves in Cream Legbars were the beginning of the push-back.

With the recent UK winner - it seems that the CLs are a bit moderated from the ones that looked like as someone once said 'a substandard BPR' - I guess that was 'touche' for having their own CLs called mutts. LOL -- all in good humor mind you.


This also brings up two points to ponder.... 1. Not everone's ideal CL will be THE standard...the idea of Crele is to expand the gene pool pretty dramatically IMO and still retain the original look that is so distinctive for a Cream Legbar- 2. What about the chickens that are truly boarder-line regarding such things as secondaries... Returns to the question posed at the State Fair "how much chestnut (referring to the 'some chestnut allowed') is allowable before the judge will start to deduct points...there are some areas that are (pardon my pun) shades of gray.

 

[sol2go]

<edited>

<I agree with FMP's statement that the white's could match all existing SOP with just a color change>
<I also agree with this statement regarding Crele, but think we need some time breeding with the more colorful crested legbars to see where it goes and how the color settles down at some point>
.the idea of Crele is to expand the gene pool pretty dramatically IMO and still retain the original look that is so distinctive for a Cream Legbar- 2. What about the chickens that are truly boarder-line regarding such things as secondaries... Returns to the question posed at the State Fair "how much chestnut (referring to the 'some chestnut allowed') is allowable before the judge will start to deduct points...there are some areas that are (pardon my pun) shades of gray.

added my notes in blue

 

[sol2go]

Okay - we have covered a lot of ground....

just to sharpen the focus a bit... We are looking at the differences between the Cream Legbar - and other Legbars that could comprise a different variety. In a way - to focus on the existing Legbars and not launch new projects --

<edited>

Hi ChicKat,

I was not sure about the statement I highlighted in red.
I agree that the process has highlighted valuable information on the Cream Legbars.

At first when I read your statement (in red) I thought you meant you no longer wanted to pursue SOP's for any new varieties, and stay focused on the Cream's.

In rereading it, do you mean stay with the Creams, as well as their offspring that are not breeding true to the Cream SOP (which we may call Crele), and the whites? Also the rose combs?
Not anything laced? Not anything mottled or whatever else is popping up?

I do think it might be important to have the Cream Legbar SOP adopted and in use before other varieties are introduced to the APA application process, not that I have any basis for that. Does anyone else have an opinion or information on that? Maybe that's already been discussed somewhere and a protocol established?

Thanks.

 

[sol2go]

<edited>
My sweet old guy - just collapsed in the sun today when I happened to have the camera in the pens.

Is he okay?

 

[ChicKat]

Is he okay?

Oh Sol2go---

There are times - as you noted in above posts - when I am a plumb awful communicator. Here's how I see it. It is as if the chicken is a marionette - and someone suddenly cut all the strings -- they just flop and put out a wing and sometimes raise their hackles - and just soak up sun. It is the strangest/funniest thing. Usually I don't have a camera - and by the time I go get one - they jump up when they see me approach - thinking either -- she has treats...or -- she will pick me up I gotta high-tail it outta here......

This was the luxurious collapse where they fall on the ground and streach out -- but sometimes they do look dead. LOL -- yes, thank you he is just fine. It was especially nice that he did the spread-out-the-wing thing just then so I could photo.


The second before-- I was trying to get his wing triangle - he looks particular ragged due to molt - and his once perfect white earlobes are getting a lot of pink -

The second after.

He's fine - he's out there crowing his head off right now.

 

[ChicKat]

Hi ChicKat,

I was not sure about the statement I highlighted in red.
I agree that the process has highlighted valuable information on the Cream Legbars.

At first when I read your statement (in red) I thought you meant you no longer wanted to pursue SOP's for any new varieties, and stay focused on the Cream's.

In rereading it, do you mean stay with the Creams, as well as their offspring that are not breeding true to the Cream SOP (which we may call Crele), and the whites? Also the rose combs?
Not anything laced? Not anything mottled or whatever else is popping up?

I do think it might be important to have the Cream Legbar SOP adopted and in use before other varieties are introduced to the APA application process, not that I have any basis for that. Does anyone else have an opinion or information on that? Maybe that's already been discussed somewhere and a protocol established?

Thanks.

Thank you for zeroing in on the parts that are confusing....

One point you made was VERY IMPORTANT - the APA has in the past admitted multiple varieties - but that was a long time ago - a friend of mine did research on it when they first told us it was impossible... and there is precedent, she listed several pages. I seriously doubt that it will happen ever again - Only one variety will probably be admitted 'first'.

When Cream Legbars first came to the stage - Walt Leonard - APA - said something to the effect - just wait - there will be 'naked-neck cream Legbar', Lavendar Cream Legbars etc.etc. -- and sure enough there were so many hybirds and projects that when these different CLs appeared in the CL threads - some folks new on board who may perhaps have not read the long threads from the beginning and were new to chickens -- were beginning to get kind of confused with what was and what wasn't a Cream Legbar - subsequently the Cream Legbar Hybrid Thread was started by Hapless Runner...... IMO it cleared up a lot of the confusion and streamlined the CL threads.

Let's take naked neck as an example -- if someone wanted to have a naked neck variety - wouldn't there be needed a 'critical mass' of at least 5-breeders who would be members of the APA and raise - breeding true to type and color for 5-years at the rate of at least 50% and assembling over 50 - of hens, cocks, cockerels and pullets in a qualifying meet. As we understand now that is a rough outline of what it would take - along with approximately $1,000 (my estimate based on printing and publishing costs) to cover the cost of artwork and printing for the particular SOP edition that the birds would appear in. Again that is as I understand it at the present time.

Some of the dilemmas that we face are when the actual 5-year period would begin. Are the Cream Legbars that have been in shows to date -- 'correct' -- ?? Was thinking about that today. Sadly some of the ones that have 'won' in recent poultry shows are crestless.... So Perhaps the 5-years has not yet had its clock start ticking. That may be the dilemma.

Here's a question - ... and it is, I think valid, how many varieties, departing how far from the basic - make sense... For example, laced, or penciled. What advantage would a penciled or partridge CL add to the breed. What would be gained changing a Cream Legbar when there are already breeds/varities of chickens that have penciling, lacing, or even naked necks. -- It could be because I have only been raising chickens for around 4 years - that I don't understand exactly the approach. Some of these breeds - take years of work to perfect the penciling, lacing or spangling - but what would be gained starting with a CL - when if one wished to have penciled - they could start with the penciled breed instead of the crele-duckwing.

Just help me out here and enlighten me. (putting a lot of responsibility on you -- LOL -- so please anyone with a view on the subject - please chime in).

ETA - perhaps some creative people see each breed as a canvas for their creativity.... Plymouth Rock for example - there are a number of varieties, same with Leghorns etc. -- The other breeds are very distincitve - Lakenvelder, Vorwerk, Sulmtaler, Blue Andalusian, etc. -- (sorry for the breed spellings if wrong)

ETA - I take it back..... I just looked up Sulmtaler on feathersite, and there are other varieties - I don't even know if Sulmtaler is working on APA acceptance...it is however another single combed crested breed, none of which have been admitted to APA as of yet.
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGP/Sulm/BRKSulmtalers.html

every day you learn something new.. Feathersite is showing blue and silver wheaten.

 

[chicken pickin]

It is a great wing shot ChicKat. And even better that it was a no hassle wing shot for you lol.

 

[ChicKat]

It is a great wing shot ChicKat. And even better that it was a no hassle wing shot for you lol.

Thanks c p !

It was a combination of being in the right place at the right time and having camera in hand...LOL - and yes -- it helps so much when they do all the work. I have some ghastly photos where I was trying to both hold the chicken and the camera at the same time.