Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

If you were to pay $50 for near 1 year old bird how close to standard would you expect. I can see paying more for a substandard hen (folded combs and fairly dark at this point) because of egg production but for a cockerel I would not expect a chestnut(brown) saddle or am I missing something. How hard would it be to get to Cream or close to cream from something like that. (I only mention it because the birds were supposedly direct from GFF)

I culled the 3 boys I got from hatching eggs this year because none of them exhibited something I could start with and am kind of looking for a boy and some more hens.(got 1 and she is a sweetie). I'm not sure I'm ever going to drive hard for SOP but Id rather not start with something so far off that it might be near impossible.


What would you expect to pay for cockerel with some flaws but seems to have the basic ingredients?

That is a tough one.... there is 1). Supply & Demand - she can ask what the market will bear. and there is 2). What is the cost of taking a day old chick and raising it to adulthood.

Not sure the ages there -- and - just as a reminder about the SOP - folded combs on the hens are totally acceptable so long as the comb doesn't impair her vision. and chestnut is allowed on the back. So if those are the negatives that you see in them -- they really are allowed in the SOP.

Have you seen the cockerel that won in the UK's Poultry show this year?

That being said, the seller has made up their own name for the breed...Creme Legbar -- so are they a rugged individualist or are they unaware of what the CL Club and others are trying to do to get the breed recognized.

From the photo, the cockerel on the right - the hen directly behind him and the one above may be worth the money IMO -- but again -- it depends a lot on what you wish to do with them, Where you are with your own existing hen etc. --

Were you to hatch eggs--- you would be 6-months away from eggs even if the eggs hatched today.... and how much time effort and feed would it take in 6-months? (Trying to be devil's advocate here)

I don't think that they are THAT far away from 'standard'.

ETA - the hen on the left looks like she is in molt - which would make her around 18-months old as I understand it. Both males have nice tail angles not squirrel tailed in the males. Old time experts will tell you to 'build the barn' and then paint it. Type is far more important than color (you would never know it from Cream Legbar threads--- but really it is. )
:O)

 

[caychris]

That is a tough one.... there is 1). Supply & Demand - she can ask what the market will bear. and there is 2). What is the cost of taking a day old chick and raising it to adulthood.

Not sure the ages there -- and - just as a reminder about the SOP - folded combs on the hens are totally acceptable so long as the comb doesn't impair her vision. and chestnut is allowed on the back. So if those are the negatives that you see in them -- they really are allowed in the SOP.

Have you seen the cockerel that won in the UK's Poultry show this year?

That being said, the seller has made up their own name for the breed...Creme Legbar -- so are they a rugged individualist or are the unaware of what the CL Club and others are trying to do to get the breed recognized.

From the photo, the cockerel on the right - the hen directly behind him and the one above may be worth the money IMO -- but again -- it depends a lot on what you wish to do with them, Where you are with your own existing hen etc. --

Were you to hatch eggs--- you would be 6-months away from eggs even if the eggs hatched today.... and how much time effort and feed would it take in 6-months? (Trying to be devil's advocate here)

I don't think that they are THAT far away from 'standard'.

Thanks I'm just starting out in this process and from what Ive read so far if I remember correctly the chestnut color is kind of invasive and can be hard to overcome.
My main concern at the moment is the pretty blue eggs but I don't want to rule out breeding to standard and if I am going to pay good money for birds to move in that direction I want it to be worth it. I just needed a bit of input to understand what I'd be in for if I were to take these birds.

I'm not as concerned about cost of raising chicks at this point. I have access to process unwanted cockerels and a few people who want backyard layers so its more a labor of love. I like hand raising the chicks too so the birds are easier to deal with.

 

[chicken pickin]

I agree with @ChicKat in the sense that the amount of money you might pay or be asked to pay all depends on that sellers area market/demand allows them to charge. I look at those birds in the pic you posted and see a good foundation flock for someone just starting out. A word of caution, if a person breeding and selling Cream Legbar are not aware that the Legbars being put out into our country are mostly not correct and require lots of work to get to them closer to standard then other people new to the breed may not know either and just continue to the same cycle. Just because you breed a Cream Legbar to a Cream Legbar it does not make it a correct Cream Legbar if that makes sense. Judging but the picture it looks as though the males carry the gold gene, and I can not tell if the females are crested or not. Like Chickat said also one female looks to be molting so she may be older, which is fine if you don't mind that.

For me personally when I occasionally sell my CL, I have sold not correct for cream, meaning they showed gold in color, pullets under the age of point of lay for $20-35 depending specifically on age. For correct for cream pullets nearing point of lay I have sold them for $45. I have yet to sell a laying pullet or hen so I do not know how I would price them. And I have yet to sell or rehome any male CL from my flocks, I cull them all if they are not suitable breeders (just my personal preference). I think a person striving for a good flock that is being worked on by moving them closer to the SOP can with confidence charge a little higher and be comfortable doing so. People that breed Cream Legbar just to result in Cream Legbar offspring to sell because they think all CL are worth more money well they have another thing coming.

I suggest that if you are interested in a started flock or even this persons flock specifically, ask them many questions and find out how long they have been breeding them and if they have been doing any work to improve them. Also is there a reason they are rehoming these CL? Are they Culls? Are they their original stock? Are they Offspring of the original stock? This may tell you if these birds are a work in progress that you yourself may be able to continue to move forward. I have heard a saying recently related to breeding and that is "If your not moving forward, your moving backward". And I love that saying because it reminds us that we all need to continue to move forward in our plans with what ever breed it may be that we are working on. Another good saying I learned " If you fail to plan, you plan to fail". Another good reminder for us to have a plan as we move forward. Even if the plan is small, each achieved plan is one step closer to where we should be.

If you are not in love with this flock for sale there are plenty of other CL out there, started flocks as well as eggs from very good sources that are working towards correct color and type. Its best to start with the very best foundation birds you can find. Of course you need to look for a source that as stock that suits your needs. Whether it is Cream or Golden Crele is up to you. But remember to also look for type it is the most important.

Now that I went on to write an entire page Im not even sure if I made sense lol so sorry for the novel of my opinion it may not have gotten you anywhere further than where your thoughts already were lol.

Good Luck!

 

[ChicKat]

That is a good point - AND raising your own, you know how they were raised. I have some here (not Legbar) That I think got a little feed - but were mostly expected to free range - and they are smaller than they should be. They started laying late, and for the longest time they looked more like pigeons than like chickens. Some of the same breed that I have had since two weeks old are big strapping juveniles -and I bet that they will come into lay before 8-months.

Long ago I got some legbars from Craig's list and I think they were really neglected during that juvenile grow out period - and they were late layers and lousy layers. IMO Cream Legbars should be performance birds.

But if you can pick and choose from her stock - it wouldn't hurt if you wanted to pick up a couple because I think it would almost be a wash cost-wise to raise a chick or to buy a started chicken - she will probably only just about break even if she gives them good feed. -- And you are 1/2 year ahead of where you would be otherwise. -- but you never never know-- you will have to trust your intuition -- there is always a risk of bringing new birds on the premises.


Regarding the SOP -- not sure exactly what you are looking for - but I can say that we recently heard from a plumage genetics expert in the UK who said that for his own personal preference he wouldn't want one that was lighter than the one in this picture:

So I see some definite chestnut on the wing, and I see some warm color in the saddle feathers - and if that is the light end....the you know you needn't go for the pure-white look that some thought was the only choice.

 

[ChicKat]

chicken pickin - You always have good insights and advice.!!

 

[enola]

I agree with @ChicKat
 in the sense that the amount of money you might pay or be asked to pay all depends on that sellers area market/demand allows them to charge. I look at those birds in the pic you posted and see a good foundation flock for someone just starting out. A word of caution, if a person breeding and selling Cream Legbar are not aware that the Legbars being put out into our country are mostly not correct and require lots of work to get to them closer to standard then other people new to the breed may not know either and just continue to the same cycle. Just because you breed a Cream Legbar to a Cream Legbar it does not make it a correct Cream Legbar if that makes sense. Judging but the picture it looks as though the males carry the gold gene, and I can not tell if the females are crested or not. Like Chickat said also one female looks to be molting so she may be older, which is fine if you don't mind that.

For me personally when I occasionally sell my CL, I have sold not correct for cream, meaning they showed gold in color, pullets under the age of point of lay for $20-35 depending specifically on age. For correct for cream pullets nearing point of lay I have sold them for $45. I have yet to sell a laying pullet or hen so I do not know how I would price them. And I have yet to sell or rehome any male CL from my flocks, I cull them all if they are not suitable breeders (just my personal preference). I think a person striving for a good flock that is being worked on by moving them closer to the SOP can with confidence charge a little higher and be comfortable doing so. People that breed Cream Legbar just to result in Cream Legbar offspring to sell because they think all CL are worth more money well they have another thing coming.

I suggest that if you are interested in a started flock or even this persons flock specifically, ask them many questions and find out how long they have been breeding them and if they have been doing any work to improve them. Also is there a reason they are rehoming these CL? Are they Culls? Are they their original stock? Are they Offspring of the original stock? This may tell you if these birds are a work in progress that you yourself may be able to continue to move forward. I have heard a saying recently related to breeding and that is "If your not moving forward, your moving backward". And I love that saying because it reminds us that we all need to continue to move forward in our plans with what ever breed it may be that we are working on. Another good saying I learned " If you fail to plan, you plan to fail".  Another good reminder for us to have a plan as we move forward. Even if the plan is small, each achieved plan is one step closer to where we should be.

If you are not in love with this flock for sale there are plenty of other CL out there, started flocks as well as eggs from very good sources that are working towards correct color and type. Its best to start with the very best foundation birds you can find. Of course you need to look for a source that as stock that suits your needs. Whether it is Cream or Golden Crele is up to you. But remember to also look for type it is the most important.

Now that I went on to write an entire page Im not even sure if I made sense lol so sorry for the novel of my opinion it may not have gotten you anywhere further than where your thoughts already were lol.

Good Luck!

You made perfect sense to me. The only thought that I can add is to inquire about the roosters temperaments. In my opinion, human agressiveness should not be in the gene pool.

 

[caychris]

I agree with @ChicKat in the sense that the amount of money you might pay or be asked to pay all depends on that sellers area market/demand allows them to charge. I look at those birds in the pic you posted and see a good foundation flock for someone just starting out. A word of caution, if a person breeding and selling Cream Legbar are not aware that the Legbars being put out into our country are mostly not correct and require lots of work to get to them closer to standard then other people new to the breed may not know either and just continue to the same cycle. Just because you breed a Cream Legbar to a Cream Legbar it does not make it a correct Cream Legbar if that makes sense. Judging but the picture it looks as though the males carry the gold gene, and I can not tell if the females are crested or not. Like Chickat said also one female looks to be molting so she may be older, which is fine if you don't mind that.

For me personally when I occasionally sell my CL, I have sold not correct for cream, meaning they showed gold in color, pullets under the age of point of lay for $20-35 depending specifically on age. For correct for cream pullets nearing point of lay I have sold them for $45. I have yet to sell a laying pullet or hen so I do not know how I would price them. And I have yet to sell or rehome any male CL from my flocks, I cull them all if they are not suitable breeders (just my personal preference). I think a person striving for a good flock that is being worked on by moving them closer to the SOP can with confidence charge a little higher and be comfortable doing so. People that breed Cream Legbar just to result in Cream Legbar offspring to sell because they think all CL are worth more money well they have another thing coming.

I suggest that if you are interested in a started flock or even this persons flock specifically, ask them many questions and find out how long they have been breeding them and if they have been doing any work to improve them. Also is there a reason they are rehoming these CL? Are they Culls? Are they their original stock? Are they Offspring of the original stock? This may tell you if these birds are a work in progress that you yourself may be able to continue to move forward. I have heard a saying recently related to breeding and that is "If your not moving forward, your moving backward". And I love that saying because it reminds us that we all need to continue to move forward in our plans with what ever breed it may be that we are working on. Another good saying I learned " If you fail to plan, you plan to fail". Another good reminder for us to have a plan as we move forward. Even if the plan is small, each achieved plan is one step closer to where we should be.

If you are not in love with this flock for sale there are plenty of other CL out there, started flocks as well as eggs from very good sources that are working towards correct color and type. Its best to start with the very best foundation birds you can find. Of course you need to look for a source that as stock that suits your needs. Whether it is Cream or Golden Crele is up to you. But remember to also look for type it is the most important.

Now that I went on to write an entire page Im not even sure if I made sense lol so sorry for the novel of my opinion it may not have gotten you anywhere further than where your thoughts already were lol.

Good Luck!

Im going to pass on these guys. The unknowns to me are just too many for the price. They are getting rid of this flock because they have too many breeding projects and in my opinion this one would be a lot of work.

I have 4 projects planned two of which will involve the Legbars and will be my first things to get going. I posted here because rather than the Creme thread because I would also get a good idea if they function in the alternatives that are being considered which would give me a good idea of how easy or hard I might have it. (Relatively speaking)

I agree completely about setting goals constantly. Right now I'm more concerned with building a foundation that essentially starts from scratch. I was new to chickens at the beginning of this year and have been learning a ton all year long. Now that I have learned pretty much how to keep my birds alive and happy, I'm ready to start looking at actually breeding birds.

I seem to be a sucker for hard projects. I started with some hatchery Delawares and raised out some hatchery buff orps for my wife and some friends then started with some breeders eggs Creme Legbars and Pita Pintas. (Great utility bird) Unfortunately I got mostly guys from the eggs and none really good for breeding though I still may yet breed the remaining Pita Pinta.

Im hooked but many of the projects will have to wait till I can get space for them. The Creme Legbars will probably be the first as I've already secured some space (live in City but close enough to those with land) for the breeding pen.

 

[chicken pickin]

Im going to pass on these guys. The unknowns to me are just too many for the price. They are getting rid of this flock because they have too many breeding projects and in my opinion this one would be a lot of work.

I have 4 projects planned two of which will involve the Legbars and will be my first things to get going. I posted here because rather than the Creme thread because I would also get a good idea if they function in the alternatives that are being considered which would give me a good idea of how easy or hard I might have it. (Relatively speaking)

I agree completely about setting goals constantly. Right now I'm more concerned with building a foundation that essentially starts from scratch. I was new to chickens at the beginning of this year and have been learning a ton all year long. Now that I have learned pretty much how to keep my birds alive and happy, I'm ready to start looking at actually breeding birds.

I seem to be a sucker for hard projects. I started with some hatchery Delawares and raised out some hatchery buff orps for my wife and some friends then started with some breeders eggs Creme Legbars and Pita Pintas. (Great utility bird) Unfortunately I got mostly guys from the eggs and none really good for breeding though I still may yet breed the remaining Pita Pinta.

Im hooked but many of the projects will have to wait till I can get space for them. The Creme Legbars will probably be the first as I've already secured some space (live in City but close enough to those with land) for the breeding pen.

I think if you plan to go the alternative route, the "golden crele" route, the flock you posted a picture of could be a viable option. The males show great "golden crele" color and by the looks of it good tail angles (which are hard to find). If you are able to get more pictures of the flock to show type better and as long as there type is workable then this flock could very well work for you. Again it all depends on your needs and what you want your flock to be.

I personally breed for cream and cream only. And while I do post here on this thread and I support those that would like create another variety. I am one of the ones that does not fully agree with the new variety, not because I don't like to looks of the colorful variety because I do. But because I personally feel it is too soon. For one I fear that many many people are already confused on what a Cream Legbar is and what a cream Cream Legbar should look like. I personally feel like encouraging others to breed the new colorful variety out of our Cream Legbar culls before the Cream variety is really "solid" all around and possibly even accepted. It could potentially be a set back for the Cream variety by trying to build the new variety too soon. I could be very wrong, as I am not a longtime breeder I am very very new to chickens and "breeding" So take this with a grain of salt. And for others working on this colorful variety don't be mad

. I will continue to support you all and help as I can. Notice in my signature line about breeding Cream Legbar. I felt I had to specify I was working with the Cream variety because others especially others new to the breed might not know there is a difference. Again I will hide

I can delete these comments from this thread if others find it inappropriate(pm if its the case).

 

[caychris]

I think if you plan to go the alternative route, the "golden crele" route, the flock you posted a picture of could be a viable option. The males show great "golden crele" color and by the looks of it good tail angles (which are hard to find). If you are able to get more pictures of the flock to show type better and as long as there type is workable then this flock could very well work for you. Again it all depends on your needs and what you want your flock to be.

I personally breed for cream and cream only. And while I do post here on this thread and I support those that would like create another variety. I am one of the ones that does not fully agree with the new variety, not because I don't like to looks of the colorful variety because I do. But because I personally feel it is too soon. For one I fear that many many people are already confused on what a Cream Legbar is and what a cream Cream Legbar should look like. I personally feel like encouraging others to breed the new colorful variety out of our Cream Legbar culls before the Cream variety is really "solid" all around and possibly even accepted. It could potentially be a set back for the Cream variety by trying to build the new variety too soon. I could be very wrong, as I am not a longtime breeder I am very very new to chickens and "breeding" So take this with a grain of salt. And for others working on this colorful variety don't be mad

. I will continue to support you all and help as I can. Notice in my signature line about breeding Cream Legbar. I felt I had to specify I was working with the Cream variety because others especially others new to the breed might not know there is a difference. Again I will hide

I can delete these comments from this thread if others find it inappropriate(pm if its the case).

I appreciate the honesty here and I think others might as well.Honest disagreement without belligerence is healthy.

I might tend to agree with you but I can also see the other argument that it might help solidify breeders on what they area actually looking at and for.

 

[ChicKat]

I think if you plan to go the alternative route, the "golden crele" route, the flock you posted a picture of could be a viable option. The males show great "golden crele" color and by the looks of it good tail angles (which are hard to find). If you are able to get more pictures of the flock to show type better and as long as there type is workable then this flock could very well work for you. Again it all depends on your needs and what you want your flock to be.

I personally breed for cream and cream only. And while I do post here on this thread and I support those that would like create another variety. I am one of the ones that does not fully agree with the new variety, not because I don't like to looks of the colorful variety because I do. But because I personally feel it is too soon. For one I fear that many many people are already confused on what a Cream Legbar is and what a cream Cream Legbar should look like. I personally feel like encouraging others to breed the new colorful variety out of our Cream Legbar culls before the Cream variety is really "solid" all around and possibly even accepted. It could potentially be a set back for the Cream variety by trying to build the new variety too soon. I could be very wrong, as I am not a longtime breeder I am very very new to chickens and "breeding" So take this with a grain of salt. And for others working on this colorful variety don't be mad

. I will continue to support you all and help as I can. Notice in my signature line about breeding Cream Legbar. I felt I had to specify I was working with the Cream variety because others especially others new to the breed might not know there is a difference. Again I will hide

I can delete these comments from this thread if others find it inappropriate(pm if its the case).

chicken pickin

Wow, am I glad that you brought up this subject. -- In a lot of ways it has been the elephant in the room for a few years.

someone in the APA, a correspondent from the UK and a poultry expert here in the USA have all told me that there isn't a difference, or that the difference isn't enough to require a new variety. -- That being said, combining the 'colorful' and the 'non-colorful' would resolve the split that could happen if a small group of people try to support two different varieties of chicken to try to get APA acceptance

It seems that there hasn't been enough good 'scientific proof' which could only be done by perhaps a lot of test breedings - to truly get to the very bottom of if a chicken is s+/s+, S/s+ or S/S that is autosomal red saturated. I think that people are not able to tell by looking what the make up of a CL actually IS. They may be able to tell after some extensive testing that is science based what their own CL flock is genetically-- I haven't seen anyone who has done that and posted it -- but I'm sure it could be done. I don't think with all the unknowns - starting with the E-locus and going forward - that someone can name the genetic make up of someone else's CL from a photo.

I believe that it isn't something that can be defined by just looking at the hackles. IMO it is very possible that there are different E-locus genes floating around - and that it really isn't proven that one or the other appearance is 'correct'.

Some years back someone said that the had test bred their sliver-looking CL to prove it wasn't silver -- but when the details were examined it seems that the particular approach that they used wasn't completely scientific, wasn't completely accurate, and wasn't truly conclusive. (It didn't cover all the possible contingencies - and the test hen wasn't one with fully known genetics as I recall. --) If there were only one gene to examine to get the 'proof' then it would be different..but CL is probably one of the more complex genetic combinations that there is.

So absolutely no need to hide, it is too bad more people don't look at this and find a strategy to get to the bottom of it. IMO the best approach would to get the DNA sequenced of particular chickens and see how the genotype matched with different phenotypes.

More digging into exactly what you stated is something that would be very beneficial for the breed.