Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

I appreciate the honesty here and I think others might as well.Honest disagreement without belligerence is healthy.

I might tend to agree with you but I can also see the other argument that it might help solidify breeders on what they area actually looking at and for.

This is a good insight. People have left the breed when they were told that their 'more colorful' Cream Legbars were not Cream Legbars -- sad for the breed that could use more supporters. Some people prefer the ones that aren't light -- and so they wouldn't, most likely raise the light ones..... and the number of people raising the breed for APA acceptance would be less.

 

[enola]

Personally, I think Cream Legbars are pretty, but, I think the Golden Crele Legbars are beautiful.

Either way breeders of both varieties of Legbars have a long way to go.

 

[ChicKat]

Personally, I think Cream Legbars are pretty, but, I think the Golden Crele Legbars are beautiful.

Either way breeders of both varieties of Legbars have a long way to go.

So very true! Don't all breeds when they are just getting started have a long way to go? Especially rare breeds. When I look at the 1947 CL pictures from the London Dairy Show -- and compare to the more recent ones...I do think that they have improved somewhat.

 

[GaryDean26]

...someone in the APA, a correspondent from the UK and a poultry expert here in the USA have all told me that there isn't a difference, or that the difference isn't enough to require a new variety. -- That being said, combining the 'colorful' and the 'non-colorful' would resolve the split that could happen if a small group of people try to support two different varieties of chicken to try to get APA acceptance...

I talked to Ernie Haire at the Texas State Fair. He showed me his Wheaten Marans that were being exhibited. He brought a Light Wheaten, a dark Wheaten, and a Medium wheaten. He said that the Marans breeders didn't settle on an "idea" before they submitted the variety for APA approval so now he will go to one show and the "Light" wheaten will show well and the dark wheaten won't and he will got to another show and the Dark Wheaten will show well and the Light Wheaten won't. He said that he now takes one of each (and sometime something in the middle) to every show to make sure he has something that will be competitive in the cage. He doesn't like it. He wishes that that one or the other was the standard so that he would only have to breed for one color of wheaten. I feel that including colorful and not so colorful birds in one Legbar variety would be even worse that what the Wheaten Marans breeders are seeing. I don't think that it would attract more breeders (especially not more long time APA members). I think that it would discourage good breeder if we gave them a wide range on the color.

I am not a Wheaten Breeder so I am not sure if these are the best example of the color differences that the Wheaten Breeders are dealing with but it gives you an idea.

First is one that I think is on the light end of the spectrum (although I have seen even lighter).



Here is one that is a lot darker.




And this really dark one is also part of the Wheaten Marans gene pool.



So...judging from the comment/dissatisfaction from a Marans breeder I think that we are best off to keep separate crele/light brown/gold colored Legbar and a cream colored Legbars and emphasize a different goal in the SOP for each so they can be distinguished.

 

[ChicKat]

I talked to Ernie Haire at the Texas State Fair. He showed me his Wheaten Marans that were being exhibited. He brought a Light Wheaten, a dark Wheaten, and a Medium wheaten. He said that the Marans breeders didn't settle on an "idea" before they submitted the variety for APA approval so now he will go to one show and the "Light" wheaten will show well and the dark wheaten won't and he will got to another show and the Dark Wheaten will show well and the Light Wheaten won't. He said that he now takes one of each (and sometime something in the middle) to every show to make sure he has something that will be competitive in the cage. He doesn't like it. He wishes that that one or the other was the standard so that he would only have to breed for one color of wheaten. I feel that including colorful and not so colorful birds in one Legbar variety would be even worse that what the Wheaten Marans breeders are seeing. I don't think that it would attract more breeders (especially not more long time APA members). I think that it would discourage good breeder if we gave them a wide range on the color.

I am not a Wheaten Breeder so I am not sure if these are the best example of the color differences that the Wheaten Breeders are dealing with but it gives you an idea.

First is one that I think is on the light end of the spectrum (although I have seen even lighter).



Here is one that is a lot darker.




And this really dark one is also part of the Wheaten Marans gene pool.



So...judging from the comment/dissatisfaction from a Marans breeder I think that we are best off to keep separate crele/light brown/gold colored Legbar and a cream colored Legbars and emphasize a different goal in the SOP for each so they can be distinguished.

Thanks Curtis,

It also brings to mind that there were years when brown Legbars were all exhibited together, and then eventually they were split out in the APA, I think it was you that pointed that out.

Interesting dilemma for the Wheaten Marans people.

For everyone hanging out, posting, lurking etc. in this thread.... if you will post any ideas, conclusions, any 'aha moments',

Please post them and I will see if I can get a summary up on this thread prior to the end of the calendar year.

 

[rc50]

Question.... i'd like to know where I can find some "Alternative" Rhode Island Reds.... Delawares.... New Jersey and or Marans.... Plymouth Rocks.... ?


thanks a ton

 

[enola]

What is an Alternative RIR?

 

[ChicKat]

Question.... i'd like to know where I can find some "Alternative" Rhode Island Reds.... Delawares.... New Jersey and or Marans.... Plymouth Rocks.... ?


thanks a ton

rc - if you are trying to be facetious, you humor misses the mark - for me at least.

If you are serious, I believe all the breeds you named are already in the APA's SOP -- if New Jerseys are Jersey Giants that is, I am not aware of a breed called New Jerseys that anyone is doing any work on.

The first post in this thread explains that it is a discussion to try to get to the bottom of some things influencing a DRAFT of a Standard that is a work in progress, and to determine if there is enough difference and enough interest to develop other SOPs for another variety or other varieties of Legbar. A group of people is working to get the breed accepted by the APA, hence the work on SOP.

If you do have a serious question regarding Legbars - please repost, this thread is specific to the Legbar breed and doesn't include other breeds.

ETA - okay Keith, when I googled it I saw a New Jersey chicken. So I stand corrected. I also read what happened to the your avatar chicken - and I am so very sorry that you had to endure that after all your work. That is the kind of heart-breaking thing that causes some people to throw in the towel. I'm glad to know that you didn't. It looks like you have a lot of knowledge and have done a lot of work with autosexing Hambars. -- my apology if I sounded rude above.

 

[ChicKat]

Here is a view of the other side of the winning Cockerel in the UK's nationals:


The cockerel is owned by Angela and Kevin Haynes

I'm guessing this is Angela--- one big cockrel! :O)

Here is the article:
http://www.backyardpoultrymag.com/inside-britains-national-poultry-show-2014/



and a repeat of something earlier in this thread - from UK winnings of this year:

Andrew Kerr exhibited a Cream Legbar Pullet and was awarded Best Cream Legbar Female and Best Autosexing.
This was very encouraging as it was a hotly contested class of 15 birds and resulted in his hen making it onto Championship Row for the Rare Breed Society.



Seems like we are focusing in a lot of shows - to the omission of other traits...but it is nice to see the results from the UK (country of origin) shows. In general the CL was not designed as much for showing as it was for producing.

 

[sol2go]

I talked to Ernie Haire at the Texas State Fair. He showed me his Wheaten Marans that were being exhibited. He brought a Light Wheaten, a dark Wheaten, and a Medium wheaten. He said that the Marans breeders didn't settle on an "idea" before they submitted the variety for APA approval so now he will go to one show and the "Light" wheaten will show well and the dark wheaten won't and he will got to another show and the Dark Wheaten will show well and the Light Wheaten won't. He said that he now takes one of each (and sometime something in the middle) to every show to make sure he has something that will be competitive in the cage. He doesn't like it. He wishes that that one or the other was the standard so that he would only have to breed for one color of wheaten. I feel that including colorful and not so colorful birds in one Legbar variety would be even worse that what the Wheaten Marans breeders are seeing. I don't think that it would attract more breeders (especially not more long time APA members). I think that it would discourage good breeder if we gave them a wide range on the color.

I am not a Wheaten Breeder so I am not sure if these are the best example of the color differences that the Wheaten Breeders are dealing with but it gives you an idea.

First is one that I think is on the light end of the spectrum (although I have seen even lighter).



Here is one that is a lot darker.




And this really dark one is also part of the Wheaten Marans gene pool.



So...judging from the comment/dissatisfaction from a Marans breeder I think that we are best off to keep separate crele/light brown/gold colored Legbar and a cream colored Legbars and emphasize a different goal in the SOP for each so they can be distinguished.

such a wide range, thanks for the the post and the comment.

Personally, I think Cream Legbars are pretty, but, I think the Golden Crele Legbars are beautiful.

Either way breeders of both varieties of Legbars have a long way to go.

Thanks for this post, I agree.

And thank you @chicken pickin for contributing to the conversation. The main thing I think of when I consider separate breeding pens for the Cream Legbars and the more colorful group, is preserving genetic diversity. I agree that the focus, for many reasons, is on the Cream Legbars.

At this point I guess it's applying what I am learning with regards to type and utilizing it for both color groups. Since I am still working on the Cream aspect, I may consider pulling from the more colorful group if there is a significant type advantage i.e. in the barn building phase. However, as @dretd said so well some time back, if I could buy pre-painted lumber in the right color for my barn, I would consider that!

By the way, Hi! and Happy Holidays to all. I've been away and popped back in. I may have some other late comments.