Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

cp - I think that your chickens are SUPERB. I agree that the chestnut shoulders may be too much on the sample males I put up -- but we diverge - because for my taste - the ones you prefer are too little. But that's my taste...and both are in the SOP -- I think maybe if their chestnut was proportionate to the shoulders of a red-winged black bird - I would think that is perfect for me. ;O) = somehow I think I read some place or other that that red-shoulder is the indication of a male in some breeds.... Don't know where I got that.

I think that your wing triangle in the last photo is probably exemplary of the SOP --

Ha - thought I was quoting chicken pickin - but I was quoting me. I think that wing triangle is a good vision/goal.
I have a question about curled toes. -- I got a hen from someone - she is from the line A of GFF -- she is very dark-hackled - some would call her 'golden' -- and she has a small teeny crest- it is slate gray crest. But she has one curled toe. -- Does anyone know what causes curled toes? I have an Isbar that had her toe nearly severed - and I know that is from a physical injury to an adult. I have one in the brooder - (they should be out of the brooder now - but I need to get a space for them)--- that has a curled toe--that I think is my doing because I think I may have broken it when she was first hatched. She is very very dark - her breast - instead of being salmon is rust -- but of course she is the one who is the friendliest - first to jump out of the brooder and crawl up my arm -- and they are getting to be about 3/4 to 1-pound now -- so it is a stretch to think of them as chicks -- they are feathering out fully too. I think I have heard of brooder temps as a cause, incubator temps as a cause, vitamin deficiency - and also vitamin deficiency in the hen.

The person I got this CL from doesn't recall if it was an injury or from her chick days..... Are we seeing a 'lot' of curled toes? and if so do we know the cause. I'm tempted to hatch from this hen just to see if it is genetic. Anyone have any thoughts. She does lay an extra large egg -- a bit greener than my others lay.Maybe between OAC123 and OAC151 - lighter than OAC151 and bluer than OAC123 -- but close to both.......

 

[enola]

Should pullets hatch out a blond color?

 

[caychris]

Ha - thought I was quoting chicken pickin - but I was quoting me. I think that wing triangle is a good vision/goal.
I have a question about curled toes. -- I got a hen from someone - she is from the line A of GFF -- she is very dark-hackled - some would call her 'golden' -- and she has a small teeny crest- it is slate gray crest. But she has one curled toe. -- Does anyone know what causes curled toes? I have an Isbar that had her toe nearly severed - and I know that is from a physical injury to an adult. I have one in the brooder - (they should be out of the brooder now - but I need to get a space for them)--- that has a curled toe--that I think is my doing because I think I may have broken it when she was first hatched. She is very very dark - her breast - instead of being salmon is rust -- but of course she is the one who is the friendliest - first to jump out of the brooder and crawl up my arm -- and they are getting to be about 3/4 to 1-pound now -- so it is a stretch to think of them as chicks -- they are feathering out fully too. I think I have heard of brooder temps as a cause, incubator temps as a cause, vitamin deficiency - and also vitamin deficiency in the hen.

The person I got this CL from doesn't recall if it was an injury or from her chick days..... Are we seeing a 'lot' of curled toes? and if so do we know the cause. I'm tempted to hatch from this hen just to see if it is genetic. Anyone have any thoughts. She does lay an extra large egg -- a bit greener than my others lay.Maybe between OAC123 and OAC151 - lighter than OAC151 and bluer than OAC123 -- but close to both.......

On currled toes there are multiple causes but the most likely in my opinion are
Possible incubation heat/humidity problems and vitamin issues.

I have on Pita Pinta that has essentially a broken toe that I did not catch as a chick it has curled around and should probably have the toe removed at this point.

So I guess I'm saying unless you can see a trend I wouldn't assume genetics.

I wouldn't hesitate to hatch from a bird with a toe problem but I would be sure to watch the hatch carefully to see if the trait is could be environment or genetics. Genetics can contribute to how environmental factors manifest but its hard to tell.

 

[caychris]

Should pullets hatch out a blond color?

Ive heard there is chance for a sport like coloration like that but in general no. In either case they should have some definite striping and eye liner. Boys on the other hand tend to run the gambit.


*** edited to add I think the sport issue has to do with the barring genes much like how the Delaware was created using the sports from a PBR over NH.

 

[ChicKat]

Should pullets hatch out a blond color?

Punnett put in a color plate in the genetics journal for Gold Legbars....and Cream Legbar chicks should look like gold legbar chicks. There are multiple variations, and he never got to the bottom of why. I'm pretty sure it is in the Cream Legbar Club's Clubhouse storage/google group -- I will see if I can dig up a copy to post so the variations can be easily seen.

 

[enola]

There are pictures on a thread called CREAM LEGBARS IN LOUISIANA, these chicks are 'blond', the pullets are very light, eye liner is very light.

 

[caychris]

There are pictures on a thread called CREAM LEGBARS IN LOUISIANA, these chicks are 'blond', the pullets are very light, eye liner is very light.

Yeah those are definitely not what I would call standard.

This brings up a question about the Rees line genetic mix. Is there more information on how they were created?

When you mix so many breeds into the genetic blender some strange things are likely to happen.

 

[KPenley]

There are pictures on a thread called CREAM LEGBARS IN LOUISIANA, these chicks are 'blond', the pullets are very light, eye liner is very light.

They're fine. There are some differences in down darkness mostly based on whether the bird has dark or light barring genes, or a combination of the two. But those chicks are definitely not sport whites which are lighter and more yellow.

 

[enola]

I didn't think they are sports.

 

[ChicKat]

Here is a photo from Punnett of the chick down in these pelts of actual chicks:


apology for the quality-- there are quality images here someplace on BYC--- I had to take this with my tablet. As you can see the upper right cockerel chick photo is fairly light.

Yes, I do see some chick pictures that are very far removed from these ''wild type'' chicks. And those that have such chicks are pretty adamant that only theirs are correct, but here is color plate from an article from Punnett's day. as you can see they are Legbar Chicks not Cream Legbar chicks -- but since CLs are supposed to be gold based, the wording was that the CL chick down is like the gold Legbar chick down. Then in the UK SOP it was changed to be like the sliver Legbar down. (Funny how many contradictions we dig up in the history of the breed)----

The important thing is the dorsal stripes on the chicks. They should be very evident. I also consider the chipmunk look a tell that it is an autosexing CL. You probably can't read the caption - but only the bottom two are pullets. The top 3 are males. You can see the white head spot. IMO if your chicks look like this they are genetically on target -- if they have little or no markings - then some of the outcrosses in the interveing years are showing their influence.