Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[sol2go]

Ha - thought I was quoting chicken pickin - but I was quoting me. I think that wing triangle is a good vision/goal.
I have a question about curled toes. -- I got a hen from someone - she is from the line A of GFF -- she is very dark-hackled - some would call her 'golden' -- and she has a small teeny crest- it is slate gray crest. But she has one curled toe. -- Does anyone know what causes curled toes? I have an Isbar that had her toe nearly severed - and I know that is from a physical injury to an adult. I have one in the brooder - (they should be out of the brooder now - but I need to get a space for them)--- that has a curled toe--that I think is my doing because I think I may have broken it when she was first hatched. She is very very dark - her breast - instead of being salmon is rust -- but of course she is the one who is the friendliest - first to jump out of the brooder and crawl up my arm -- and they are getting to be about 3/4 to 1-pound now -- so it is a stretch to think of them as chicks -- they are feathering out fully too. I think I have heard of brooder temps as a cause, incubator temps as a cause, vitamin deficiency - and also vitamin deficiency in the hen.

The person I got this CL from doesn't recall if it was an injury or from her chick days..... Are we seeing a 'lot' of curled toes? and if so do we know the cause. I'm tempted to hatch from this hen just to see if it is genetic. Anyone have any thoughts. She does lay an extra large egg -- a bit greener than my others lay.Maybe between OAC123 and OAC151 - lighter than OAC151 and bluer than OAC123 -- but close to both.......

Hi ChicKat
I adopted an older Brahma hen. When I hatched her only offspring I noticed he had curled toes to match his mamma. The next generation offspring has had curled and non-curled toes. My hatches were a mix of broody hens and incubators. My entirely unscientific conclusion is it seems like genetics played a part.

 

[dretd]

Should pullets hatch out a blond color?

Pullets should not be blonde, they should be dark brown chipmunks--the description actually says in the Gold that a pale ground color and narrow center dark stripe is to be avoided--see descriptions for down below

Here is a photo from Punnett of the chick down in these pelts of actual chicks:


apology for the quality-- there are quality images here someplace on BYC--- I had to take this with my tablet. As you can see the upper right cockerel chick photo is fairly light.

Yes, I do see some chick pictures that are very far removed from these ''wild type'' chicks. And those that have such chicks are pretty adamant that only theirs are correct, but here is color plate from an article from Punnett's day. as you can see they are Legbar Chicks not Cream Legbar chicks -- but since CLs are supposed to be gold based, the wording was that the CL chick down is like the gold Legbar chick down. Then in the UK SOP it was changed to be like the sliver Legbar down. (Funny how many contradictions we dig up in the history of the breed)----

The important thing is the dorsal stripes on the chicks. They should be very evident. I also consider the chipmunk look a tell that it is an autosexing CL. You probably can't read the caption - but only the bottom two are pullets. The top 3 are males. You can see the white head spot. IMO if your chicks look like this they are genetically on target -- if they have little or no markings - then some of the outcrosses in the interveing years are showing their influence.

Great post on the gold chick down colors--color plates are so much better than black and white! Interesting that middle one is a boy--I wouldn't breed from him if I had a choice so that I can preserve autosexing--you can definitely see his blurred back stripe over the rump, its just not a quick glance and your done, you'd have to think about it.

I have hatched out two blonde male chicks from Blackbirds13's stock, none of their offspring are blonde but I expect to see some in the next generation. I researched it at the time and Punnett had said that there were 2 down colors with the blonde type coloration being recessive and that the color of the down was not an indication of the dilution of the adult plumage.

The PCGB British Poultry Standards book I have from 1971, full descriptions of both:
"Downs, Female (Gold): Brown stripe type. The stripe should be broad and very dark brown extending over the head, neck and rump. The edges of the stripe should be clearly defined rather than blurred and blending with the ground colour--the sharper the contrast, especially over the rump, the better. The ground colour should be dark brown, though distinctly paler than the stripe. A pale ground colour and a narrow or discontinuous stripe are to be avoided. A light head spot should be visible, though usually it is small. It should be well defined in outline and should show up as clearly as possible against the brown background.
Male: The down is much paler in shade, the pattern being blurred and washed out from head to rump"
and
"Downs, Female (Silver): Silver-grey type. The stripe should be very dark brown, extending over the head, neck and rump. The edges of the stripe should be clearly defined, not blurred and blending with the ground colour--the sharper the contrast especially over the rump, the better. The stripe should be broad; a narrow discontinuous stripe should be avoided. A light head patch should be visible, clearly defined in outline, showing up brightly against the dark background.
Male: The down is much paler in tint, the pattern being blurred and washed out from head to rump; it may be described as a pale silvery-slaty"
and
"Downs (Cream): as for Silver.

Looking at the two female descriptions, they are basically the same even thought he wording is slightly different-
-both describe a very dark broad brown stripe starting at the head going down the back and the rump and that it should be a crisp band with the sharper the contrast over the rump the better.
-both describe a well defined, light head patch in the female

So what are the differences?
-the Gold says Brown Stripe type, the Silver says Silver-grey type==>yet the female Silver doesn't use the word silver or grey anywhere in the description, only brown.
-the Gold has the added description that the ground color should be a dark brown color but distinctly paler than the stripe (the dark brown one down the back, not the very light side chipmunk stripes)
-The Gold also clarifies that a pale ground color and a narrow dark brown stripe should be avoided.

Looking at the male descriptions
-They both lack any mention of a headspot
-The both are paler than the females with the Gold called a paler shade and the Silver being called a paler tint.
-the Silver clarifies that the color is a pale silvery-slaty with the Gold having no description on color.

My thoughts on the down color:
-Females should have a headspot and I am thinking that I may add that in to a potential cull point. I am thinking that the head spot is a feature that early on will let you know if the bird is going to be better barred. Perhaps the less brown looking females can be achieved with more barring and the headspot is an early indicator of that? Something I will pay close attention to this summer.
-Males should be pale enough that their headspot/blotch blends into the ground color. I have hatched all shades of grey and also the tannish/blonde males and I will say that the dark grey ones and ones that have a lot of cinnamon color have a much more distinct headspot whereas the light grey and blonde have an indistinct headspot. I think that the color dichotomy in the down doesn't seem to make a big difference in the final color of the male's plumage, however, it will make it harder to sex the males and the females.

Because this is an autosexing breed, my feeling is that any traits that make it harder to distinguish male from female easily should be removed from the population. So light downed females and dark downed males with a bright headspot should not be bred moving forward so that the important autosexing traits are retained. At least that's my take.

Off the top of my head:
First cull: egg qualities (set only well-shaped, large, well-colored eggs from productive hens)
Second cull: down color in the chicks (dark, crisp outlines for females, washed out blurred lighter colors with very diffuse headspot in the males)
Third cull: defects at hatch
Fourth cull: everything else from behavior to color to type to lack of vigor as they grow out
Fifth cull: any parent that produces young that are inferior to the parent stock
...

 

[dretd]

There are pictures on a thread called CREAM LEGBARS IN LOUISIANA, these chicks are 'blond', the pullets are very light, eye liner is very light.

Wow, I just looked at this thread and I would have said that she has 3 boys! I wish she would post a picture of the back so we can see the dark brown stripe and how distinct it is over the rump--until I see that, I'm afraid they are Schrodinger's chicks to me.

 

[enola]

I would very careful introducing chicks with such light colored down in a breeding program. In my opinion, if breeders start keeping chicks like this for breeding stock, auto sexing will fly right out of the window!!!!

 

[caychris]

Here is a backward look at my girl since we were talking about development

About a month ago


about 3 months back





Not sure age here dont remember

Her as a chick

Pretty sure she is in the foreground


With her hatch mates

Can you pick her out there was only 1 girl in this whole batch and she was it (4 CLB 2 Pita Pinta, 1 Delaware)

 

[dretd]

Not sure age here dont remember
Hi caychris! It looks like you have quite the building project going on! How many pens are you building in total? Do you have smaller ones for selected pairings or are they done by breed, or whats the scoop?

You'd never guess she would have such a large crest by looking at her baby picture--she barely seems to have a thickening where the crest will come in.
Her as a chick

She reminds me of my A line girls with the bright headspot--very cute and seems very 'typey' for down color

Can you pick her out there was only 1 girl in this whole batch and she was it (4 CLB 2 Pita Pinta, 1 Delaware)

Easy-left to right, top row Pita Pinata, CL girl, CL boy
middle row Pita Pinata, CL boy
bottom row Delaware, CL boy
Or did I get it wrong?

 

[dretd]

Quote:
I was hoping to get you to clarify your question--do you mean how the GFF Rees line was created, how Jill Rees bred her flock, or how the Cream Legbar was created?

 

[caychris]

That building project was for my back yard layer flock. Im still working on breeding pens.

 

[caychris]

I was hoping to get you to clarify your question--do you mean how the GFF Rees line was created, how Jill Rees bred her flock, or how the Cream Legbar was created?

I was meaning how the Rees line was created. I was hoping there would be some more specifics about that line than others.

 

[chicken pickin]

Ha - thought I was quoting chicken pickin - but I was quoting me. I think that wing triangle is a good vision/goal.
I have a question about curled toes. -- I got a hen from someone - she is from the line A of GFF -- she is very dark-hackled - some would call her 'golden' -- and she has a small teeny crest- it is slate gray crest. But she has one curled toe. -- Does anyone know what causes curled toes? I have an Isbar that had her toe nearly severed - and I know that is from a physical injury to an adult. I have one in the brooder - (they should be out of the brooder now - but I need to get a space for them)--- that has a curled toe--that I think is my doing because I think I may have broken it when she was first hatched. She is very very dark - her breast - instead of being salmon is rust -- but of course she is the one who is the friendliest - first to jump out of the brooder and crawl up my arm -- and they are getting to be about 3/4 to 1-pound now -- so it is a stretch to think of them as chicks -- they are feathering out fully too. I think I have heard of brooder temps as a cause, incubator temps as a cause, vitamin deficiency - and also vitamin deficiency in the hen.

The person I got this CL from doesn't recall if it was an injury or from her chick days..... Are we seeing a 'lot' of curled toes? and if so do we know the cause. I'm tempted to hatch from this hen just to see if it is genetic. Anyone have any thoughts. She does lay an extra large egg -- a bit greener than my others lay.Maybe between OAC123 and OAC151 - lighter than OAC151 and bluer than OAC123 -- but close to both.......

I am not 100% sure if the curled toe/s is genetic or incubator issues because I know both can be the causes. With in my own CL I have had 3 with curled toes, 2 pullets that were rehomed as egg layers to layer flocks and the cockerel that has the nice wing I posted above was culled recently. The cockerel was very nice looking with cood coloring and barring but had the worst curled toes out of all 3. Each CL with the curled toe/s came out of 3 different hatches and that I can recall it was only in those 3 CL that had curled toes. I was advised that because it could be genetic birds with curled toes should be an automatic cull from any breeding program.

GaryDean26 has been nice enough to PM on occasion responding about things that I mention about my CL flock and I hope that he doesn't mind me sharing his words from the PMs. But this is what he said to me when I was asking many months back about my cockerel with curled toes. And I truly appreciate the advice and thoughts that he shares with me on occasion.

" One of the Marans was from a hen that I wanted to breed a cockerel back to improve egg color. I kept him around because he was a good overall bird with his only really fault being the toes. I decided NOT to breed him because an APA judge with 60 years of breeding chickens said in a post on facebook that even though environmental factors could cause crooked toes that you should never us such a bird to breed because the genetic defects look just like the environmental mutilation and these is no way of really knowing which is what. So...the only way to know that you aren't breeding forward a physical defect is to not breed birds with crooked toes. So for me I would say don't use that cockerel. "

I have also read this from other serious breeders, that they would not use such a bird for breeding. This is part of my culling process also.