Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

Wow, that golden rooster is what I would call VERY colorful! lol Far too much for a CREAM legbar it would seem.

I was out watering my birds tonite and suddenly realized I should post some pics of some pullets I have growing out. They are actually from the trio that I acquired before I knew my friend was going to sell her birds. Their chest coloring is different, one is more of the cream color, one is, I believe maybe more towards the salmon side.... They looked practically identical as chicks. Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on which girls would be best to keep if I want to keep the color in them without going to the gray side and without going to the overmelanized side...

Thanks for posting the pic of the chick with the vaulted skull... I have not seen that. Has it been a common problem with anyone's legbars?

Also... a random question.. when I first started learning about these birds, they were being abbreviated "CCL", now I see them abbreviated as "CLB" is there a reason?

The reason is because people are air-heads....

Sorry, I couldn't resist. -- Once upon a time in the UK they were called Crested Cream Legbar -- then the name was officially changed to Cream Legbar. OFFICIALLY the correct name is Cream Legbar -- when I'm lazy I just use CL -- maybe people like 3-letter initials so they use CLB -- those that use CCL -- they seem to be outside the main-stream of BYC and the Cream Legbar Cub -- we should run out and bonk them all on the head.

Or maybe that is too violent a reaction.

Was looking on what is for sale on ebay last night -- and they have Creme legbars and Crested Cream Legbars and Cream Crested Legbars -- and there is someone on there using the wrong actual name of the breed who declares that they are breeding to standard -- but there is no standard to my knowledge under any of the wrong names. (someone pointed the incongruity out to me. LOL

You should post pictures of your birds....the pictures of CLs could use a little action! https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/603454/cream-legbar-pictures/570#post_15050480

Salmon breast is definitely in the SOP and salmon breast is an indicator of Wild Type (e+ on the E-Locus in the chick down -- both are definitely GOOD things in a CL) <----- see being lazy again and abbreviating.


I think vaulted skull is very rare - should a vaulted bird live to adulthood, it seems like it would have an enormous crest -- I wouldn't use it for a breeder, but it could be a pet quality or chicken for eggs, garden art, eye-candy, blue egg layer -- Easter Legger.

 

[caychris]

The reason is because people are air-heads....

Sorry, I couldn't resist. -- Once upon a time in the UK they were called Crested Cream Legbar -- then the name was officially changed to Cream Legbar. OFFICIALLY the correct name is Cream Legbar -- when I'm lazy I just use CL -- maybe people like 3-letter initials so they use CLB -- those that use CCL -- they seem to be outside the main-stream of BYC and the Cream Legbar Cub -- we should run out and bonk them all on the head.

Or maybe that is too violent a reaction.

Was looking on what is for sale on ebay last night -- and they have Creme legbars and Crested Cream Legbars and Cream Crested Legbars -- and there is someone on there using the wrong actual name of the breed who declares that they are breeding to standard -- but there is no standard to my knowledge under any of the wrong names. (someone pointed the incongruity out to me. LOL

You should post pictures of your birds....the pictures of CLs could use a little action! https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/603454/cream-legbar-pictures/570#post_15050480

Salmon breast is definitely in the SOP and salmon breast is an indicator of Wild Type (e+ on the E-Locus in the chick down -- both are definitely GOOD things in a CL) <----- see being lazy again and abbreviating.


I think vaulted skull is very rare - should a vaulted bird live to adulthood, it seems like it would have an enormous crest -- I wouldn't use it for a breeder, but it could be a pet quality or chicken for eggs, garden art, eye-candy, blue egg layer -- Easter Legger.

I always use the CLB abbreviation

I have a question on the salmon breast. I'm seeing some slight lacing or barring (not sure the exact feather pattern) on some girls in this area and it seems that it may come in after a molt because it wasn't noticeable before.

Could this have to do with the melanization on some birds. I think you mentioned this about my girl once upon a time. (old pic)




I also see a wide range of coloration in some of the adults some one mentioned something called an Amelia to me and they looked a lot like something between a Brown Leghorn and a Cream Legbar. I see a lot of birds that run to the more gold/brown side of things compared to my girl here who is fairly dark and cream to silver/grey hackles. (Though I noticed recently that she is cream if not heavily displaying it)

 

[ChicKat]

Well I'm glad that you took what I said with a grain of salt -- it was all meant in good humor.

Any chance for a better more direct front on picture of your chicken? From what I can tell/see she definitely doesn't look like a burnt orange back and bright yellow hackles that I would expect in a gold Legbar. -- she does have cream hackles from what I can see. It could be that she does carry a lot of black pigment which would possibly cause dark edges on her breast-feathers.....

This is the first I have heard of an Amelia -- but it is a pretty name....hmmm

 

[caychris]

Here are some photos from today she really didnt want to sit still to be photo'd










Ill get some pics of the chicks when I can
Im hoping one of the two boys is worthy to breed because I only have this one and the chick as girls (This one is still a pullet for a few months)

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks caychris!

I see what you mean about the black pigment at the end of the feathers. I have one that has that too. As she gets older it seems to be going away -- but it is 'strange' to think of it on a CL. It is the eumelanine. Chickens do all their plumage colors with just red, black and the lack of either which is white, and what amazaing results they come up with.

This is from Henk69's brilliant work on the web: http://kippenjungle.nl/basisEN.htm

Here's an extract.


Genetics of Chickencolors:

Groundcolor:

Chickens have 2 kinds of pigment that define their plumage color. These are the black (sometimes darkbrown/chocolate) pigment eumelanine, melanin for short, and the yellow/red pigment pheomelanine.

The groundcolor of a chicken is pheomelanine. When this is absent it is called "silver" which looks white.

The common silver-gene allows the expression of some red features like salmon breast or red shoulders.

In wildtype chickens the groundcolor is yellow to brown, it is called "gold". By so called red enhancers this gold can be boosted to a (dark) red color.
For example the mahogany colored Rhode Island Red.

The gold can be diluted to a yellow, cream or lemon color. The groundcolor can thus be silver, gold, red or yellow.

Chickens are rarely fully groundcolored. An example being Buff. This color is partly a mystery for the genes that eliminate the last bits of black are unknown. In the chicken calculator you can approach this color by setting it to a columbian like pattern.







The question of how to get it OUT, other than selecting away from it....I don't know. Anyone else have any insight to this ??

 

[dretd]

Here are some photos from today she really didnt want to sit still to be photo'd

Good morning Caychris!

I have the same sort of breast feather tipping in many of my girls. It seems to be much more apparent in the youngsters and does seem to become less apparent when they get their adult plumage in. There was a discussion about this on the boards many months or a year ago and it seems to be common. I have found there are at least two separate melanizers in my flock, probably many more. I decided that for me, this is not a make or break problem unless it is excessive--like on most of the breast. Yours seems to be in the transition area between the salmon and grey of the body so it would be something I would breed away from, not cull for, if it were in my flock. There was speculation that this may be from a modified mottling or lacing on the breast only.

I did have one pairing from my lightest (least melanized) roo and a melanized hen with tipping result in pullets with more melanization than expected including one with a smutty/mossy strip of black down the center of her breast. All of the girls had some degree of melanization on their throats which was very surprising to me given the lack of melanization in the male!

Here she is in the first photo at 8 weeks in the center--her sister had the more traditional black tipping you are asking about and that tipping mainly went away as she matured. The photo on the right shoes the melanized girl at about 4 months. You can see how the salmon came in but that she has that strip of mossy feathers up then center of the breast. Both were sold as an Easter Leggers--the second had very gold-tinted hackles but was very pretty otherwise.


Here is another genetics resource that talks about lacing (Pg and Melanotic Ml in eb--so not a perfect fit), but could explain the messy barring I have on the roo I referenced if he carries one copy, plus the black tipping on the body could be obscured by the barring gene so it is not as noticeable in the hens. I think single copies of this combo could explain a lot of issues I periodically see in my hatches--perhaps from a genetic variant that is not strongly expressed? Food for thought anyway! http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html#gen_mut_eumeldiluters

 

[rebel-rousing-at-night]

Hi Everyone on this thread!

I have some CLB chicks from 3 different breeders and all are under 8 wks. I see various color ranges on these chicks. Is there more info somewhere that shows what the different colors of chick down will be as adults?
I'm not experienced in this info.
My latest chicks were hatched this week and on the females I can see that on some the stripe down the back almost black while the light stripes on either side looks more cream than gold. Others have an almost smokey gray cast and then the others a more chestnut cast.
I'm asking because I can't keep all these guys until adulthood.lol Too much chicken math going on at my house.

Thanks

 

[chicken pickin]

Hi Everyone on this thread!

I have some CLB chicks from 3 different breeders and all are under 8 wks. I see various color ranges on these chicks. Is there more info somewhere that shows what the different colors of chick down will be as adults?
I'm not experienced in this info.
My latest chicks were hatched this week and on the females I can see that on some the stripe down the back almost black while the light stripes on either side looks more cream than gold. Others have an almost smokey gray cast and then the others a more chestnut cast.
I'm asking because I can't keep all these guys until adulthood.lol Too much chicken math going on at my house.

Thanks

Unfortunately chick down color is not something that you can go by. So far we have seen no correlation between chick down color and adult feather color in neither the males or the females. In all honesty the best chances you have in selecting the ones with the best coloring is to hold onto them for as long as you are possible, even if only until 12weeks of age, 16-20weeks would be even better. But at under 8weeks it might be a little early to select ones with good coloring.

If only there was a better faster way to select nice birds. How many chicks (males and females) do you have, and how long might you be able to hold onto them? And of course you are welcome to share some pics with us, we all LOVE to see Cream Legbar pictures

 

[rebel-rousing-at-night]

Unfortunately chick down color is not something that you can go by. So far we have seen no correlation between chick down color and adult feather color in neither the males or the females. In all honesty the best chances you have in selecting the ones with the best coloring is to hold onto them for as long as you are possible, even if only until 12weeks of age, 16-20weeks would be even better. But at under 8weeks it might be a little early to select ones with good coloring.

If only there was a better faster way to select nice birds. How many chicks (males and females) do you have, and how long might you be able to hold onto them? And of course you are welcome to share some pics with us, we all LOVE to see Cream Legbar pictures

Thanks, chicken pickin . I should have known color of chick down=?? I have 12 pullets that are in the chick down stage.The most I have were hatched this week. Hmm...probably will just do my first pick from who I like best. Since it may be a stretch to get by with a rooster It's not like I will be a big time breeder.lol

About pictures...they are on my phone and I can't log in to BYC with my phone. As far as color on the roosters I prefer the ones with more color than washed out and on pullets I really like a large crest. CLB are a really beautiful breed.

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks, chicken pickin . I should have known color of chick down=?? I have 12 pullets that are in the chick down stage.The most I have were hatched this week. Hmm...probably will just do my first pick from who I like best. Since it may be a stretch to get by with a rooster It's not like I will be a big time breeder.lol

About pictures...they are on my phone and I can't log in to BYC with my phone. As far as color on the roosters I prefer the ones with more color than washed out and on pullets I really like a large crest. CLB are a really beautiful breed.

Yay - so glad that you are involved with CLs - and congratulations on having so many chicks to choose from.

You may be onto something with careful looks at the chipmunk stripes. In her book genetics expert Sigrid Van Dort says that the stripe can tell you what the underlying e-Locus IS -- so if the stripe is white-- that is a silver e-Locus - if the stripe is brown it is a gold e-Locus -- (cream wasn't mentioned)---- If the theory applies -- perhaps a cream-coloured chipmunk stripe (the lightest one on the back of the chick) indicates a cream, ETA -->perhaps the center dorsal stripe indicates the amount of black pigment - melanotic -- opps sorry if I misspelled that...

I had a chick with very white underbelly and chin - and she feathered to a very melanotic (black pigment) adult - although her breast didn't have the dark feather edges that we are seeing a lot of now-a-days. She had lots of black in her neck-hackles. Most of my chicks are very cream on their underbelly and fuzzy-butt.

Just as chicken pickin says, the longer you can keep them the more you will know....but down and adult color -- I haven't seen anyone with the definitive answer about the correlation as of yet. Email those phone pictures to your email -- and grab them from there to post. (it's a thought anyway!)