Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

Well,the conundrum here is we want a nice crest and the want to limit a roosters crest for a straight comb. We allow the hen the accomodation on her comb for that crest, why not the rooster then?
I have a cockerel with a knockout crest, and of course his comb is not straight, and I will use him for breeding.

Hi Kjbizy1!

Welcome to BYC and thanks for posting.... YES! You hit on a big dilemma! BIG! We are probably going to have a lot of cockerels with crooked combs. And good for you for sticking to what you want in your own Legbars.....

IMO on a rooster - the upright straight comb is one indicator of health, fertility and vigor. Rooseters have stronger support in their combs than hens so I have been told. I had a cockerel with with a flopped over comb (like a hens) that straightened out when he reached maturity. I had one that had the perfect comb - became ill - his comb drooped - he became well and his comb straightened out again...so I do know first hand that there possibly is something to it.


These are all the same guy: The floppy comb was in his youth. You can judge his different ages a little bit by how large his wattles finally got.







i had thought that he would stay floppy forever.

Because I find floppy wattles and huge combs very unappealing - I'm really going to work on that. For cresting - I like the style with just a tuft behind the comb.

Remember that the male will only contribute 1/2 the genes so you could possibly find a hen that refines his comb a bit if that is a direction you want to follow. And he could have a comb that straightens out a bit.

 

[kjbizy1]

Hi Kjbizy1! Welcome to BYC and thanks for posting.... YES! You hit on a big dilemma! BIG! We are probably going to have a lot of cockerels with crooked combs. And good for you for sticking to what you want in your own Legbars..... IMO on a rooster - the upright straight comb is one indicator of health, fertility and vigor. Rooseters have stronger support in their combs than hens so I have been told. I had a cockerel with with a flopped over comb (like a hens) that straightened out when he reached maturity. I had one that had the perfect comb - became ill - his comb drooped - he became well and his comb straightened out again...so I do know first hand that there possibly is something to it. These are all the same guy: The floppy comb was in his youth. You can judge his different ages a little bit by how large his wattles finally got. i had thought that he would stay floppy forever. Because I find floppy wattles and huge combs very unappealing - I'm really going to work on that. For cresting - I like the style with just a tuft behind the comb. Remember that the male will only contribute 1/2 the genes so you could possibly find a hen that refines his comb a bit if that is a direction you want to follow. And he could have a comb that straightens out a bit.

So are combs that are flopping over due to being at an angle and relative only to the crest? Here is a top shot of the comb on him. Will his comb flop too?

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[ChicKat]

So are combs that are flopping over due to being at an angle and relative only to the crest?
Here is a top shot of the comb on him.
Will his comb flop too?

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My guess is that his comb will NOT flop -- the guy I pictured had a comb that transversed the top of his head diagonally as a chick - and I knew early on he wouldn't have a straight comb. Your juvenile appears to have a comb very straight unlike my guy until it gets past they eyes. Is his crest more on one side than the other side of his comb at the back? So that for certain the crest is pushing the comb over?

I also see that you have a very saturated coloration - which is beautiful, but probably would fall outside of the description of the SOP - It will be interesting to see how he grows out - that's for certain.....and you would be a person IMO that would place your chicken in an SOP that wasn't a match for the existing CL SOP-- if that even matters to you at all.

This is the kind of thing that I wish we would focus on more than color....What is the best comb/crest combinaton for a Cream Legbar type?

Here is how I would like my CL combs to be:

To my eye this is a nicely balanced comb/wattle configuration -- of course this little guy was a hybrid Ceram Legbar and Blue Isbar -- and not a Cream Legbar at all - but since the crest is dominant - he got his dads' crest. If I have a picture that shows the crest better I would put it up. But this is a question I'm wondering about right NOW....If he only has one cresting gene his crest is small. IF a CL had only one- he may look better in a show ring - but genetically he is a defective CL IMO. A CL should carry two cresting genes. IMO it would be better to have a CL with two cresting genes and a less than perfect comb - than to have a perfect comb and only one cresting gene.

Here is a little guy who's crest was growing in on just one side of his comb:

 

[chicken pickin]

So are combs that are flopping over due to being at an angle and relative only to the crest?
Here is a top shot of the comb on him.
Will his comb flop too?

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The size of the crest plays a very big part on whether or not combs will flop curve or do any other "weird" things. Ideally males should have a small crest to make room for the large straight comb to grow properly. On your male specifically he seems to currently have an upright straight comb and his crest in this picture seems to be what I would consider only a little larger than what I would call small. You could get lucky and he may keep the straight upright comb, he looks very young though so he still has so much maturing to do. As his comb enlarges there is a chance it will get more curved in the back or scrunched in the front over the beak. How old is this male?

I agree with @ChicKat that age, health and even the time of year can play a part in how the comb will look. I also believe that if someone is careful to breed birds that have smaller and thicker combs with appropriate sized crests for the gender, I think it is possible to eventually get straight upright combs.

I myself am still working on that. I had a sire that had a pretty straight and upright comb and it seems all his offspring I have hatched this year so far which are 6week olds and most of my males have horrid combs. Sigh, sometimes it feel like one step forward only to later go 2 steps back, its a process but I still have a week old male to evaluate and 7 more CL eggs hatching next weekend.

 

[ChicKat]

Good views cp --

Here is something else to consider.... even though the male has two cresting genes, and the female has two cresting genes.... the male crest is usually smaller than the females in a Cream Legbar. - significantly enough smaller that it is sometimes called a 'tuft'. Some CL females have extremely bouffant crests.... I even have a picture somewhere from the internet that shows a female with I have to say a Polish-type crest that obscures her vision on a cream legbar coloration hen. My preference on both male and female is small but well defined crests.

 

[kjbizy1]

My guess is that his comb will NOT flop -- the guy I pictured had a comb that transversed the top of his head diagonally as a chick - and I knew early on he wouldn't have a straight comb. Your juvenile appears to have a comb very straight unlike my guy until it gets past they eyes. Is his crest more on one side than the other side of his comb at the back? So that for certain the crest is pushing the comb over? I also see that you have a very saturated coloration - which is beautiful, but probably would fall outside of the description of the SOP - It will be interesting to see how he grows out - that's for certain.....and you would be a person IMO that would place your chicken in an SOP that wasn't a match for the existing CL SOP-- if that even matters to you at all. This is the kind of thing that I wish we would focus on more than color....What is the best comb/crest combinaton for a Cream Legbar type? Here is how I would like my CL combs to be: To my eye this is a nicely balanced comb/wattle configuration -- of course this little guy was a hybrid Ceram Legbar and Blue Isbar -- and not a Cream Legbar at all - but since the crest is dominant - he got his dads' crest. If I have a picture that shows the crest better I would put it up. But this is a question I'm wondering about right NOW....If he only has one cresting gene his crest is small. IF a CL had only one- he may look better in a show ring - but genetically he is a defective CL IMO. A CL should carry two cresting genes. IMO it would be better to have a CL with two cresting genes and a less than perfect comb - than to have a perfect comb and only one cresting gene. Here is a little guy who's crest was growing in on just one side of his comb:

His comb and crest started off looking like your last picture. He is about three month old now. I am purposely seeking to breed a richly colored gold Crele line, and personally like a large crest. He also appears to have only a single barring gene, so I only keep a certain percentage of,his offspring. I am currently looking for another rooster prospect, but finding Crele like him is hard. Even,finding a good CL is proving difficult too. I have some gold girls I can use with a CL roo, if,that is all I can find. I can't use this guy with my current stock, and need more birds in general for breeding next year, just finding it hard to get off the ground on this breed, but I am committed so know eventually I will get there.

 

[KendyF]

Thanks everyone !!! What great input. WOW -- Love this discussion one and all.

for Sol3go and KendyF -- no hard feelings at all - that you find the chart falling short. It has been a tool that helped me a LOT -- but you aren't alone in disliking it -- there are a number of others who dislike it. I appreciate your views... There is an old saying that 'two people will agree on everything if only one of them is thinking' -- and we have historic and recent examples of how bad Group Think can be! That being said -- the chart shows a gold color pattern - and a silver pattern. 100% of each color...and we do know (do we not?) that the Cream Legbar should be neither gold nor silver...ESPECIALLY the female. --- So when the chart was made it was to Kind of get an answer to the question "what is Cream" -- And thanks Junibutt for seeing the elephant in the room - that has been danced around for a few years. When I started this thread,,, I was of the opinion that the gold needed to be diluted from 40% to 10% to look correct for a CL -- Now I really think that 50% and down is a Cream Legbar acceptable dilution of gold AND 45% maybe perfect -- with slightly darker saddles (as long as not pure dense chestnut) and definite chestnut on the wing a far more proper Cream legbar.... is it gold at 40 or 50 percent... well yes, they are ALL gold -- cream is a diluter of gold. The chart doesn't show a mis-match of saddle and hackle, nor does it show chestnut. After all it is only a tool -- AND I doubt that the crisp reflection of the duckwing ancestry with barring will ever show up in our Cream Legbars -- but I have considered emphasizing that definite dark bar and the darker barring on my flock -- I like that look. Some people had thought that Punnett named the breed for the recessive gene and it has nothing to do with the appearance of the breed. Reading his cream papers -- he states that it is a color never seen before.... Like it or not - because of the name - cream is expected - Many people don't consider it a mark of breeding prowess to have a sliver-looking chicken that has some recessive genes - and you would never even know that they were there. Some people think that is nonsensical because -- if you want a silver looking bird -- then breed a silver. It is a to each his own. Cream is harder than silver.

Also for everyone -- in a show if there are 4 Cream Legbars -- how many are going to be perfect -- zero. Does that mean that we should never show a CL that is imperfect?

Chicken pickin and BuffyB -- really good points!! Very well said -- I need to hop back up there and give you some Ovations!!

caychris - we may be bound by the 'mistake' that the UK made -- but it does trace back to Punnett & Pease so we are bound by it. Could you extrapolate your view a little more with some ideas for what we can do? Are you suggesting in a way that the USA should make the Cream Legbar it's own breed apart from the gold and silver. You are right that this genetic make up is certainly one of the most complex.


Junibutt -- I wonder if there would be people who would step up and speak up -- LOL - and what happens to the ones who the vote doesn't go their way.?? Thanks for the insights and thanks that you get it.

for some years the question unanswered has been 'what color is cream'? -- and in the chicken world brown is gold, white is sliver, gray is blue -- and maybe cream is white -- but it isn't in the other breeds -that are cream .... It is also something that has a range -- as in Cream Brabanter..... I wonder if they have the same agony over color that Cream Legbar folks have. Even the Dutch Bantam in Cream -- has a range.... So I'm kind of mystified as to why the CL couldn't.

As Kendy put up her rooster thinking it wasn't Cream and several of us have said it looks cream to me -- I'm wondering what those of you who think hers isn't cream do think IS cream ?? any photos to share here?

Last word -- we won't ever have a perfect chicken (well maybe in 50-years) -- Most people who think of a Cream Legbar don't think of a bird with no color. (yes we can get too much color ---) the very things that attracted people to the breed in the first place make them distinguishable and recognizable from all other breed.

IMO an APA judge wouldn't shave the hairs (feathers?) as closely as we are trying to do - LOL -- they would be looking at a big picture of the fowl -- and not so much the difference between a bit cream and more cream......

Agreeing with everyone here -- there seems to be so much controversy -- we are very much a work in progress, and have a lot of work to do -- and people should definitely be true to their own inner guidance and breed the Cream Legbar that they like.

I just want to say, I don't have an opinion on the chart, and it was helpful for a good deal of the discussion, whether or not it moves forward. My question was the chart shows "matching saddle and hackle feathers" And I wondered what the current thinking on trying to get the hackles and the saddles to match is. Thanks again for a great conversation, I wish it could be required reading. Another thought I had posted, which got lost in the rest of the excellent comments... Should their be any effort to disseminate the current interpretation of the creme color ranges, as every day people are still being told they need to go Creme (white) or they shouldn't be breeding. Thank you.

 

[KendyF]

Hey Everybody, I would like to add a bit of information to the FB groups I am in. Chickat, would it be possible to use some of the photos or link to some of the photos of the colorful winning rooster you posted? There are some very strong voiced people informing everyone they have to work towards Cream (white) and should discard and cull all of their colorful birds. I would like to get the word out this topic is at the very least still under debate if not absolutely wrong. I do not feel I am the best spokesperson, but would like to help, before people become discouraged or breed all of the color out of their birds. Thoughts on a short message and some photos I could use... (Right before I get cruelly attacked for sharing this point of view) You guys are the experts. I am just a Legbar Advocate.

Many of you expressed to me that this discussion made you change your mind about needing a color variance. It seems as if there still is debate, but that is not how the issue is being talked about in other chicken forums I am on. I would like to spread the word to people thinking their birds are worthless or that they need to cull half their flock. So, sense none of you are facebook users.. (LOL) I would like some help in how to express there is hope for colored legbars.

 

[kjbizy1]

I think us newbies get dismissed on our opinions on color issues, which is wrong. If a newcomer can see the color issues right off the bat, then my feeling is some of the people who have had their heads into the frame of thought that cream is about light colored white washed birds, may be running with blinders on, or a tad bit barn blind.
No offense intended, honestly, it is just my initial reaction, and only MY opinion.
It seems without the gold genetics that naturally accompany this breed, there would have never been Cream, am I wrong??
So I find it ironic that gold is a hiss and,by word.....IMHO

 

[Junibutt]

I think us newbies get dismissed on our opinions on color issues, which is wrong. If a newcomer can see the color issues right off the bat, then my feeling is some of the people who have had their heads into the frame of thought that cream is about light colored white washed birds, may be running with blinders on, or a tad bit barn blind.
No offense intended, honestly, it is just my initial reaction, and only MY opinion.
It seems without the gold genetics that naturally accompany this breed, there would have never been Cream, am I wrong??
So I find it ironic that gold is a hiss and,by word.....IMHO

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I agree with your characterization of "light colored white washed birds" but that's my personal liking. Others may feel like they are beautiful. Now they have to ask this honest question themselves whether they think the light birds are beautiful because they are according to the SOP or because they like them in their hearts.