Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[dretd]

Hi Everyone,

In this picture is a 3 month old pullet sold to a friend for the blue eggs. She is a bit darker than my pullets usually turn out. I think her chest goes beyond salmon to chestnut. But I would like your opinions. Obviously the shot is not meant to really show her off, but just a picture my friend sent. Hmm, when I upload the pic here, it doesn't show up as well.

Hi KendyF, Cute variety of little pullets you have there

Personally I would describe her as chestnut for now--over time she will lighten up as she matures and likely lose some of the black tipping to her breast feathers. In fact, my experience is that her hackles, which look gold tinted to my eye, may bleach put enough over time that they will look Cream. So eventually a Cream Phenotype, probably split Cream genotype.

I usually look at the girls at about 5-6 weeks and see how much gold they are showing in their hackles to let me know what their underlying genetics are (not including my 3 original split cream hens, I have 2 younger girls who are split cream I have kept because I like their type and their patterning is also good). I simply want to know what my genetics are so that I can pair my girls appropriately and hopefully improve on them. While I don't mind the split cream I want to avoid Ig/Ig in my flock becasue that is a 2 generation fix where the split cream is a one generation fix.
The other girls range from light to medium cream colored hackles. She will blanch out in 6 months and may not be very obviously different from the others.



And below here is a girl who is split for cream--nice pullet--and I have always thought of her breast as being chestnut instead of cream although her hackles have lightened up to a rich buttery color (maybe from grass fed cows instead of ones fed on silage and TMR

) she's the one on the right. And a picture of her hackles as a 12 week old--I don't know if you can appreciate how much they have lightened up over time as I have found that cream and gold tends to get washed out in all my pictures.

 

[ChicKat]

Hi Everyone,

In this picture is a 3 month old pullet sold to a friend for the blue eggs. She is a bit darker than my pullets usually turn out. I think her chest goes beyond salmon to chestnut. But I would like your opinions. Obviously the shot is not meant to really show her off, but just a picture my friend sent. Hmm, when I upload the pic here, it doesn't show up as well.

Yes the pullet has a very dark breast - it is further darkened by the dark tips on her feathers. I think someone said that can be bred out in 1 generation. A poultry judge told me that there is a range of 'salmon' --

 

[dretd]

I have yet to see someone make a definitive statement about if Saddle and Hackles need be same color (regardless of what color they need be)

Hi Caychris. My take is that without any red enhancement (aka chestnut) the saddle and the hackle should match. However, becasue chestnut is allowed in the saddle and not the hackle, there will be an inevitable mismatch if the rooster has any chestnut. In my boys, the saddle is more likely to match the crest--where chestnut is also allowed.

 

[dretd]

Quote:
Punnett described that there were two types of salmon--a light and a dark salmon. The SOP doesn't specify which is correct so by default they both are.

I feel lucky to have Welsummers, who are wild type and who have a chestnut breast (described as a rich chestnut) so I can compare my hens in similar lighting, side by side. When I have a girl with a breast similar to my Welsummers, I think of them as chestnut instead of dark salmon. That's my take in my flock, color is so subjective that I would have no quibble with Kendy calling her pullet dark salmon, either!

 

[caychris]

I just have to say this is probably the best pic of "Cream" as a color I have seen yet. Of course its on a girl.

It also shows off the barring very nicely too. this is a great pic even if there are defects to point out (not saying there are im too new) but it is an excellent picture to demonstrate what we are looking at.\

 

[ChicKat]

I just have to say this is probably the best pic of "Cream" as a color I have seen yet. Of course its on a girl.

It also shows off the barring very nicely too. this is a great pic even if there are defects to point out (not saying there are im too new) but it is an excellent picture to demonstrate what we are looking at.\

Good point -- and I think Punnett emphasized in his Cream paper that the hen is the best demo of cream.

 

[caychris]

Good point -- and I think Punnett emphasized in his Cream paper that the hen is the best demo of cream.

I wonder if along with the Draft SOP a more newbie Illustrated guide to CLB genetics/breeding might not be in order. I know I keep getting confused about which genetics are in play in the differing parts of the bird.

I think in this breed getting the look right has more genetic factors than many other breeds.

Even if we cant agree on how cream is cream

I do think we could do a better job of documenting all these little details about breeding these birds.

To look at the Sire and Son pics posted earlier I have a really hard time seeing how number 2 would have ever come about since his sire looks a bit of a mess (to my untrained eye). Seeing that pic and the results makes me rethink everything about this chicken. If we could see the mother too we might be able to determine a bit more how we go from a rather unpatterned mess to such clear distinct markings. (ie how was this pairing even considered) It sounds like it was more accident of limited starter stock than any plan but knowing the outcome may influence more planned breeding.

 

[chicken pickin]

Hi Caychris. My take is that without any red enhancement (aka chestnut) the saddle and the hackle should match. However, becasue chestnut is allowed in the saddle and not the hackle, there will be an inevitable mismatch if the rooster has any chestnut. In my boys, the saddle is more likely to match the crest--where chestnut is also allowed.

From what I gather reading the SOP, chestnut is allowed on the back, not in the saddle.

Back - Cream, barred with dark gray, some chestnut permissible
Saddle - cream, barred with dark gray, edged in cream

Unless I misunderstand what is written.

 

[caychris]

From what I gather reading the SOP, chestnut is allowed on the back, not in the saddle.

Back - Cream, barred with dark gray, some chestnut permissible
Saddle - cream, barred with dark gray, edged in cream

Unless I misunderstand what is written.

This is why I was asking because in addition to defining the color "cream" (which appears to be a range of yellow-ish colors) it is very clear that hackle color and saddle color are independently derived and influenced by different color genetics. (ig/ig does not seem to be enough) to present a cream color in both areas. this is where my chicken genetic newbie starts showing up

I think in addition to all the debate on Cream Color I would also like to understand what is the proper "barring" result we are looking for as some birds while carrying the barring gene seem to have wildly different barring expressions. (Isnt this a result largely based on the barring gene having a sex link property)

Ill be candling 15 eggs in my bator on day 10 tonight. Ill get pics of my adolescents tonight (the eggs come from same stock) and maybe you guys can point out what I have here.

Wish someone closer to me could walk me through some of this looking at real birds.

 

[sol2go]

I just have to say this is probably the best pic of "Cream" as a color I have seen yet. Of course its on a girl.

It also shows off the barring very nicely too. this is a great pic even if there are defects to point out (not saying there are im too new) but it is an excellent picture to demonstrate what we are looking at.\

I'd like to hear from @KPenley on this one…see picture in post above

Also, I believe @dretd said she is split for cream?