Yes, I have this right next to my coop and it is life sized so it's easy to compare. I need to do another with the hens legs more centered, but they're helpful to me even imperfect.
Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion
- Thread starter ChicKat
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Yes, I have this right next to my coop and it is life sized so it's easy to compare. I need to do another with the hens legs more centered, but they're helpful to me even imperfect.
- Thread starter
- #822
Really good observations - thanks for pointing them out.... so you have compared those two in type to each other. How would they compare to the type in CL Club logo.??
Adding to what you said -- the lighting of the show winner is artificial light done by a professional photographer and the lighting of the second one is outdoor light - and as you say washed out a bit in the legs....and possibly elsewhere. Shows happen in usually flourescent light...but all the birds are in the same light -- so it is a pretty level playing field, then add to it different media, processes and monitor.
I hadn't noticed some of the things that you pointed out between the two...
When I look at these guys, I see some differences between them and our logo -- or I should say more differences between them and our logo than between each other. As you pointed out -- it could easily be the situation that makes both more upright and the artwork more horizontal the way they appear to me.
but the UK winner is more relaxed in the facing left photo and more similar to the logo
- Thread starter
- #823
Just a heads up for folks,
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/05/bird_flu_pennsylvania.html
Due to the H5N2 breakouts PA has canceled Poultry Shows until October - NY has it under review as I understand it. I guess the thought is that the virus may be killed by summer's heat so by making certain that no birds/flocks co-mingle, there will be less Pathogen to eliminate when the hot weather rolls in and more liklihood of eradication. If you were planning on showing in PA before October -- it looks like that isn't going to happen.
be bio secure....
ETA - yes New York has closed shows... here is the end of the article:
"The last outbreak of bird flu in Pennsylvania was in 1983-84, when 17 million birds died as a result of the virus.
Other states to enact bans include West Virginia, North Dakota and Minnesota, which has already seen avian flu at 88 farms within its borders.
Ohio is taking a narrower approach. The state has banned bird entries from states affected by the H5N2 and H5N8 strains, but not a full ban." quote from the above article.
Thus far 15-million birds have died as a result of this year's outbreak.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/05/bird_flu_pennsylvania.html
Due to the H5N2 breakouts PA has canceled Poultry Shows until October - NY has it under review as I understand it. I guess the thought is that the virus may be killed by summer's heat so by making certain that no birds/flocks co-mingle, there will be less Pathogen to eliminate when the hot weather rolls in and more liklihood of eradication. If you were planning on showing in PA before October -- it looks like that isn't going to happen.
be bio secure....
ETA - yes New York has closed shows... here is the end of the article:
"The last outbreak of bird flu in Pennsylvania was in 1983-84, when 17 million birds died as a result of the virus.
Other states to enact bans include West Virginia, North Dakota and Minnesota, which has already seen avian flu at 88 farms within its borders.
Ohio is taking a narrower approach. The state has banned bird entries from states affected by the H5N2 and H5N8 strains, but not a full ban." quote from the above article.
Thus far 15-million birds have died as a result of this year's outbreak.
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Another state--Nebraska --has just found their third case (premisis) of burd flu..this one has about 500,000 pullets which will be destroyed. I think I that makes about 4 million from there. No bans on showing yet, but best to watch for announcements from your State's Vet to get the latest for your area.
I think the total nationwide loss is closer to 40 million, sadly.
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- Thread starter
- #825
Severla people have told me that they like the type on the 2013 cockerel and the 2014 cockerel. I'm still surprised at the similarity in the angles that they are standing. Makes their backs look shorter -- but gives an interesting look. does anyone know the age of the UK 2014 winner? (other than less than a year ) - He looks so big in his owner's arms - and being big is one advantage in a poultry show.Really good observations - thanks for pointing them out.... so you have compared those two in type to each other. How would they compare to the type in CL Club logo.??
Adding to what you said -- the lighting of the show winner is artificial light done by a professional photographer and the lighting of the second one is outdoor light - and as you say washed out a bit in the legs....and possibly elsewhere. Shows happen in usually flourescent light...but all the birds are in the same light -- so it is a pretty level playing field, then add to it different media, processes and monitor.
I hadn't noticed some of the things that you pointed out between the two...
When I look at these guys, I see some differences between them and our logo -- or I should say more differences between them and our logo than between each other. As you pointed out -- it could easily be the situation that makes both more upright and the artwork more horizontal the way they appear to me.
but the UK winner is more relaxed in the facing left photo and more similar to the logo
- Thread starter
- #826
This is an older discussion from Classroom in the Coop. I was looking for something in the Cream Legbar Club's Clubhouse, and came across this thread. As much a genetic newbie as I am now -- I understood less of it a couple years ago when I first read it. It is an evaluation of the test-cross in UK - when someone was showing all their UK-style CLs and the experts that hang out in Class room said 'that bird looks silver' -- I'm researching silver right now - because I'm wondering if my Flock-sire is actually split for silver. So silver is a focus for me. My lead hen could also be silver -- I don't recall that I have ever had a 'gold' from this pair or from their offspring, but then silver and gold may be in the eyes of the beholder...and in the sun he is goldening up.
It is fascinating to revisit it with the knowledge I have gained since the first read. In short summary, the bottom line reinforces what Walt said that we cannot know our underlying genetics because we don't know our starting point...
Besides all the cool genetic stuff - there are two varieties of BPR as they appear in Australia. -- It could be that the lighter Jill Rees type CL has the same barring activity (although we really need to neaten our barring - and we will NEVER get beyond good crisp cuckoo (bars v at feather shaft rather than perfectly straight and fade a bit to gray)-- Although we can select for neater barring IMO to approach those crele leghorn images. Reason for the barring difference (maybe a couple ) - fast feathering vs slow feathering AND different E-Locus allels in a barred vs a cuckoo. Link to classroom in the coop at the end if you want the whole picture.... KazJaps clears up a lot of things for me:
================================================================================================
I wouldn't do your test cross suggestions as they don't give the full genotypes (need to know ALL phaeomelanin modifiers), & there is no where to go for the next cross. A wasted generation. You shouldn't use complex genotypes (& untested birds) as test lines - just a heterozygous mess (test1 - how do you know if the rooster was S with other phaeomelanin modifiers?). Once again - many assumptions.... Please, read that Millefleur thread & see the dangers in all your assumptions (eg, my d'Uccle phaeomelanin diluter also significantly diluted phaeomelanin chick down - s+ + diluter looked very similar to S, & the phaeomelanin intensifier was like Mh - did not change day-old chick down).
Note - Kimball segregated an autosomal recessive phaeomelanin diluter from Wyandottes (apparently not ig). Don't take anything for granted.
To accurately test the genotype of a bird, you need wild-type test lines (wild-type to the mutation(s)), & isolate/segregate out the mutations.
---------------------------
Originally Posted By: Marvin
Hens with B/- and ig/ig look Silver instead of dilute gold
Obviously this was not the case with Punnett et al. Cream Legbars. Remember too the British Poultry Standards - they are cream phenotype, not silver, not a single word suggests they are silver phenotype.
I suggest that Cream Legbar breeder read their Standard very carefully (very silly breeding silver phenotype for a Standard Cream Legbar class that clearly states "Cream" phenotype). Poultry exhibition breed Standards are all about PHENOTYPE, not genotype, & the simple fact is that the phenotype of Cream Legbars is cream phaeomelanin (both male & females).
Also, remember, there is a GOLD LEGBAR autosexing breed too
This blows your theory as they are e+ s+ B/B or B/- based too. Going by your reasoning -these should be called Cream Legbars. There are exhibition Crele pullet lines out there where the hens don't look like Cream Legbars.
Yes, the B mutation dilutes pigment, but there are plenty of unknowns out there, & significant variations/modifiers to base genotypes, depending on specific lines.
Eg, Australian Dark Barred Plymouth Rock roosters are homozygous B/B, breed true to type, yet they are not diluted like many other B/B Barred Rock lines.
Australian exhibition Dark Barred Plymouth Rock:
B/B male & 2 females
*Photo from BYP: Peterock
BYP: Dark Barred Plymouth Rocks thread (more photos)
Australian exhibition Light Barred Plymouth Rock:
Male B/B:
*Photo from BYP: intoChooks
Notice that I don't go rattling off genotypes of lines where there has been no test breeding. I haven't the faintest idea of why the differences in the above B/B phenotypes.
==================================================================================================================================
Post 109246
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=108802&page=3
It is fascinating to revisit it with the knowledge I have gained since the first read. In short summary, the bottom line reinforces what Walt said that we cannot know our underlying genetics because we don't know our starting point...
Besides all the cool genetic stuff - there are two varieties of BPR as they appear in Australia. -- It could be that the lighter Jill Rees type CL has the same barring activity (although we really need to neaten our barring - and we will NEVER get beyond good crisp cuckoo (bars v at feather shaft rather than perfectly straight and fade a bit to gray)-- Although we can select for neater barring IMO to approach those crele leghorn images. Reason for the barring difference (maybe a couple ) - fast feathering vs slow feathering AND different E-Locus allels in a barred vs a cuckoo. Link to classroom in the coop at the end if you want the whole picture.... KazJaps clears up a lot of things for me:
================================================================================================
I wouldn't do your test cross suggestions as they don't give the full genotypes (need to know ALL phaeomelanin modifiers), & there is no where to go for the next cross. A wasted generation. You shouldn't use complex genotypes (& untested birds) as test lines - just a heterozygous mess (test1 - how do you know if the rooster was S with other phaeomelanin modifiers?). Once again - many assumptions.... Please, read that Millefleur thread & see the dangers in all your assumptions (eg, my d'Uccle phaeomelanin diluter also significantly diluted phaeomelanin chick down - s+ + diluter looked very similar to S, & the phaeomelanin intensifier was like Mh - did not change day-old chick down).
Note - Kimball segregated an autosomal recessive phaeomelanin diluter from Wyandottes (apparently not ig). Don't take anything for granted.
To accurately test the genotype of a bird, you need wild-type test lines (wild-type to the mutation(s)), & isolate/segregate out the mutations.
---------------------------
Originally Posted By: Marvin
Hens with B/- and ig/ig look Silver instead of dilute gold
Obviously this was not the case with Punnett et al. Cream Legbars. Remember too the British Poultry Standards - they are cream phenotype, not silver, not a single word suggests they are silver phenotype.
I suggest that Cream Legbar breeder read their Standard very carefully (very silly breeding silver phenotype for a Standard Cream Legbar class that clearly states "Cream" phenotype). Poultry exhibition breed Standards are all about PHENOTYPE, not genotype, & the simple fact is that the phenotype of Cream Legbars is cream phaeomelanin (both male & females).
Also, remember, there is a GOLD LEGBAR autosexing breed too
Yes, the B mutation dilutes pigment, but there are plenty of unknowns out there, & significant variations/modifiers to base genotypes, depending on specific lines.
Eg, Australian Dark Barred Plymouth Rock roosters are homozygous B/B, breed true to type, yet they are not diluted like many other B/B Barred Rock lines.
Australian exhibition Dark Barred Plymouth Rock:
B/B male & 2 females
*Photo from BYP: Peterock
BYP: Dark Barred Plymouth Rocks thread (more photos)
Australian exhibition Light Barred Plymouth Rock:
Male B/B:
*Photo from BYP: intoChooks
Notice that I don't go rattling off genotypes of lines where there has been no test breeding. I haven't the faintest idea of why the differences in the above B/B phenotypes.
==================================================================================================================================
Post 109246
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=108802&page=3
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #827
The above two versions of BPR - make me wonder how they handle the SOP for BPR in Australia. I've emailed the Club's two Aussie members to see if they can shed any light on the SOP logistics of two different looks.
Here is a CL running past:
Please comment on the picture -- Thanks!
Here is a CL running past:
Please comment on the picture -- Thanks!
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I'm glad you re-posted a link to this discussion. I remember reading the details of the cross to test for Silver in this person's flock and thought there was something problematic but couldn't remember what it was. I will sum up the experiment for those that don't have time to read the 7 page discussion.
I breeder in England had several people tell her 'how so you know your Cream Legbars aren't genetically silver instead of cream--they look silver to me". She decided to test the supposition by taking a Silver Welsummer hen and putting one of her Cream Legbar males over her. Since she is Silver and he is gold (only one copy of ig will be passed on to any offspring and thus it will not be expressed) the breeder is making a gold sexilink. All of the females should look gold (and barred) and all the males will inherit one copy of silver from the hen and be silver barred. The breeder said this was what happened and it proved that her cockerel was not silver (S/S) but rather Cream (ig/ig). We do not know the number of pullets nor cockerels she hatched out.
There are several issues with the experiment that are alluded to by KazJaps
1) Silver often has another companion genetic dilutor to enhance the silveryness or that may be hitch-hiking and simply be masked by the Silver. She points out that you can't assume that the Silver Welsummer does not have another companion dilutor that is messing with the results.
2) She doesn't specifically say this, but another problem is--how does the breeder know that her cock is not split for silver (S/s) and thus skewing the results?
If we knew how many chicks were hatched it would really help. She really needed to hatch at least 12 of each (or so) to be statistically confident that the results weren't just unlucky genetic sorting at hatch.
KazJaps suggests she use as close to wild type as she can get such as Light Brown Leghorn to do the test match. I have wondered if there is another dilutor floating around in my flock and its not Silver. I am suspicious of Dilute (Di). Its an incompletely dominant dilutor of gold-red.
Here are the effects of that gene as listed by KazJaps from http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html :
Di (Dilute) characteristics;
*note, the above pheonotype is an accumulation of columbian-like restrictors (eg, Co, & other possibilities such as Di, etc)
- -incompletely dominant
- -dilution of pheomelanin in adult plumage (gold-red)
- -dilution of chicken down (in pheomelanin),
- -reduction of lateral stripes on wild type down (stripes remained in the head & eye area),
- -dilution of dermal pigment (id+), &
- -a partial eumelanin restrictor.
I have a rooster I have posted before who is very, very light (lacks eumelanin/black and lacks pheomelanin/gold-red). He was a very light chick at hatch as well. I have never hatched a boy as light as him and most look like the normal range of Cream Legbars we are used to seeing. I do have some female chick down that appears diluted somehow (not the brown-brown back stripe coloration that I think of as normal in the females). I have also seen chicks posted online who appear to have a reduction of the lateral stripes in the females and especially the nape of the neck has a very washed-out coloration, making them harder to autosex.
Here is Cumberbatch, the roo in question:
He does fit all of the signs of Di KaxJaps listed except that I think his legs are a reasonable color of yellow. What if he has Di in a single dose? So is not sexlinked but Silver is. Because he is a boy, he would have an equal chance of passing either dilutor on to offspring of either sex. I need to test him so see what is going on. My hypothesis is that Cream Legbars may have Di in some of their lines that is piggybacked along with the ig/ig, in some cases like Cumberbatch, making them appear even lighter (or more silvery or white) than is ideal. Could this be why we see some males who are very, very light and seem to lack black barring on the breast? Most would have culled him right off, but he has produced some excellently colored/patterned offspring plus he is interesting to study.
The Plan. I have no LB Leghorns to test. However I do have Welsummer hens. They are red enhanced with an unknown red enhancer but it is fixed in the breed and they are not known to carry cream nor do they have any dominant dilutors. I hope to put Cumberbatch over the girls and see what I hatch later this summer when I have more space. I plan on hatching at least 20 chicks so it will have some statistical weight behind it. If any of the chicks are diluted, then I know that I must have another dilutor besides cream. The hard part will then be to differentialte between Silver (sexlinked) or Dilute (autosomal). I will then have to take any dilute hens from the project and put a gold male over them. I can use a Welsummer male and if the dilution sorts out that only the males are dilute and no females are dilute then it is sexlinked= Silver and if there are any diluted females produced then it would be evidence for Di. The biggest battle for me is that the f1 hens are also going to be barred so inevitably the males will all be diluted with barring (B/b), which is a big problem. It would require me doing an additional generation to sort out and I am not sure if I can do that with the amount of space I have. It would at least rule in or out the presence of Di, though, which I am becoming very suspicious of the more I look at what Di does.
Does anyone see any flaws with The Plan? I would like to hear them before I do it so I can fix any logic flaws before I proceed, so pick it apart!
The above two versions of BPR - make me wonder how they handle the SOP for BPR in Australia. I've emailed the Club's two Aussie members to see if they can shed any light on the SOP logistics of two different looks.
Here is a CL running past:
Please comment on the picture -- Thanks!
You are asking for comments on his color, correct? Not that he looks like a Roadrunner, or anything else on type?
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