Do hybrids always take type from hen?

[lyndon]

i read somewhere that if you cross two breeds of very different types, the offspring will always take the body shape from the breed of the hen. Is there any truth to this?

 

[lyndon]

Really, no one knows the answer to this question?

 

[dheltzel]

That is not true at all. I think that rumor came from show breeders that found that in their lines, a good body type on the hens was more critical than with the roos. All anecdotal and nothing in the genetics supports that, though what makes a show breeder successful is finding these sorts of "tricks" that work with their lines of birds.

The actual genetics of body type involve dominant and recessive traits like any other part of a bird's phenotype. In chickens it can get extremely complicated because many, perhaps most, dominant traits are not completely dominant, so in a heterozygous state (as is usual in a hybrid) some of the recessive traits "leak" through, to varying extents.

In conclusion, when you make hybrids, the actual results for traits like body type is often just a 'crap shoot".

 

[Bo Garrett]

Each bird contributes equally in regards to type I would think, there is no research that I know of that would state that type is sex linked. Not sure what Roos have to do with this, I've never bred a kangaroo to a chicken!! Remember this is a forum geared towards exhibition, genetics and breeding to the standard, proper terminology is requested in the header to this forum. Cock, hen, cockerel and pullet have worked well for the last couple of millennia and I figure why change a good thing. My cockerels and cocks would refuse to breed a hen or pullet if I openly referred to them as roos.
Sorry for the lesson, just stating that what if tomorrow we decided to call redwoods "woodies" would anyone know to what we were referring?

 

[lyndon]

Not sure what Roos have to do with this, I've never bred a kangaroo to a chicken!!  Remember this is a forum geared towards exhibition, genetics and breeding to the standard, proper terminology is requested in the header to this forum.  Cock, hen, cockerel and pullet have worked well for the last couple of millennia and I figure why change a good thing.  My cockerels and cocks would refuse to breed a hen or pullet if I openly referred to them as roos.

Bo, I'm sorry if my Southern U.S. colloquialisms offend your sensitive upbringing, but referring to roosters as "roos" is not uncommon here, and it is certainly less offensive to some than referring to cockerels as "cocks". This is a genetics forum, and I asked a very straight-forward genetics question, so there was no need for your holier than though criticism. Attitudes like yours ruin good forums. Get over yourself.

 

[gojira]

I don't think "roo" is a southern colloquialism. I have lived in the south (three states) my entire life, and have been involved with poultry (at many levels) just as long, and I had never heard the term "roo" in reference to a male chicken until I ran across it a few years ago on the internet. Even if it were a southern colloquialism, it still goes against the forum rules of using proper terminology. You decided to put the topic under this particular forum. Also, who would refer to a cockerel as a cock, and why would that be offensive? Cockerels and cocks are both male chickens, but different ages. Funny thing is, I have heard cock used many times, and never heard anyone in the south use the term "roo" in reference to a male chicken. I could have sworn The University of South Carolina was in the south as well.

As far as your question, it is not all that straight forward. There are many things to take into account. For the most part, you are dealing with quantitative traits, not qualitative traits, so the results are variable, but not necessarily taking after one parent any more than the other on a consistent basis There is at least one qualitative trait that is sex linked, but neither offspring shows the trait if the mother has it, but the sons will be carriers.

 

[lyndon]

I don't think "roo" is a southern colloquialism.  I have heard cock used many times, and never heard anyone in the south use the term "roo" in reference to a male chicken.

I learned the art of culling, line breeding, and refining for type from my great grandparents on both sides of the family. All but one grandmother are gone now, but today my 93-year-old grandmother finds the word cock offensive, and my great grandpaw on my mother's side used to say the word cockerel was for "condescending Yankees trying to sound British". All four of my great grandparents were raising poultry before anyone this forum was born. All were from here in Louisiana, the most southern state, and all abbreviated rooster in casual conversation. Please don't insult their memories by assuming your terminology is more accurate than theirs.

It's sad how many folks on these forums put ego and self-grandizing over helping others.

 

[gojira]

Just curious, what type of chickens did your great grandparents have? How successful were they with them? Why does your 93 year old great grandmother find the term cock offensive? I learned a lot from my maternal grandfather, who was the same age as your great grandparents, and he never used the term "roo" in reference to a male chicken. He was born, raised, etc. in Georgia, a southern state. So were his parents, grandparents, etc. Other than my grandfather, a man I consider my mentor was also from Louisiana. He was slightly younger than your great grandparents. I never heard him use the term "roo" in reference to a male chicken. And if it matters, he family had been in Louisiana for generations before him. I know other people from Louisiana, and I have never heard them use the term either. I don't think it is a regional, or even state term. Are you sure they weren't talking about roux, which is a cooking term (that has nothing to do with poultry by the way)? Just so I know, when did Louisiana become "the most southern state"? Which part of the state are you from? No one was trying to insult your great grandparents. But look at it like this, the terms cock and cockerel have been used for centuries, if not millennia. How long has the term "roo" been used?

As far as your question, it helps to make observations, and use common sense. Look at broiler hybrids. The male parent (cock or cockerel) is from a Cornish line, and the offspring have characteristics from that, but fewer traits from the female parent (pullet or hen). That is not the reason they use males with the type they do, but that is how it comes out. When I have made crosses in the past, I see more of the male parent than the female parent in the type of the offspring. That is not 100%, but it does happen. As I said, it is not easy to determine how quantitative traits will come out when crossed.

 

[gjensen]

To answer the original question. No. Collectively both sexes contribute equally, less sex linked genes. That is not to say that one individual or line may have more influence, or at least visually. To get into the details would be beyond this conversation. There is a lot of variables that influence the results.

There is an old wife's tale that would disagree. There was and is value in the idea though. When a cock is flock mated his influence is half that of the hens collectively. When mated in pairs, the contribution of the two becomes equal. Thus prioritizing the hen concerning inheritance, had real value. Emphasizing the merits of a hen has real value. Her contribution is equal when the averages are considered.

Concerning the sexes. The correct word for a male over one year is cock. Less than, cockerel. Then hen and pullet. If you want to be taken seriously by real breeders, it would be wise to use the correct terminology. Among friends that do not care, it does not matter. Cock when describing a male bird and his maturity should not offensive. I guess anyone can be offended by anything. The word has been used for much longer than has been misused.

Words are vehicles. They do matter.

gojira is correct. The University of South Carolina Gamecocks. The word Game describes the birds character . The word cock describes the bird's sex and age.

 

[Bo Garrett]

Quote: It is not a "holier than though" attitude. Just commenting that there are rules to this forum and some here have decided to deviate from them. If you can't take the heat, move to another less restrictive forum. I too have lived in the south all my life and never heard rooster being reduced to roo; my great grandparents, grandparents, parents and I have never used this term and we have raised birds for a century and a half. South Carolina Game Roos just doesn't have the same ring to it does it? Read the header at the top of this forum when next you log in, this should clarify things that I should not have to clarify. I will stand by my lesson of truth and hold to the English language as it should be used.

Respectfully,

Bo