Do Organic chicks grow slower than those feed non organic feed?

[Ariel188]

Err no its really not different health wise. All our crops are genetically modified by selective breeding. GMO causes ecosystem issues because of large single crop fields but they don't cause cancer or anything. Usually the food is modified so that it is more disease and pest resistant. So I guess you've now heard 2 people say it lol, and on one thread!

Spangled I'm sorry you obviously thought I was being rude. I said in am earlier post that I'm familiar with this issue in regards to humans. I don't know who gives oversight for the organic label in chicken feed. I'm very straight forward but I don't think simple disagreement is rude. I user 'wild' not because I was quoting you, as I would have used " ", but for a lack of a better term on my part. I'm also not the original poster.

It's too bad there's so many people profiting so very much over the organic and gmo craze going on right now. The Science behind it just isn't really where the popular urban legends are.

 

[LonelyPageTurne]

I'm sorry I misspoke I meant the USDA. I didn't notice the mistake. My bad.

 

[LonelyPageTurne]

Ok. I'd love to see some apples to apples comparisons that show they're healthier but I'm glad you feel confident and comfortable in your decision. You're right we disagree completely about GMOs but it has nothing to do with me buying into any lies. As my username indicates I'm a voracious reader and autodidact so I've based my opinion on the evidence. Congrats again on your pretty chickens and I'm glad you've reached a decision about their feed!

 

[Biologrady]

Hey, Ariel,
Didn't meat to ruffle the feathers! (Literally I guess...)
We can certainly agree to disagree about the most serious consequences of enabling the GMO growers, but I think we both agree they have issues, and are to be avoided for either environmental or health reasons, if not both. However, you can't really pin too much blame about the uptick in many of the recent (and epigenetic-related) human health concerns on GMO's because they largely arrived on scene after the rates of autism, etc, already started to spike. It may take more than my lifetime for there to be a good cause and effect relationship scientifically established, but as a scientist my money is going to be on the other, non-food exposures we get every day, such as disinfectants, detergents, flame retardants in our carpets, adhesives in building materials, etc. that have been introduced in large amounts since about the 1950's and growing ever since. Almost none of that is regulated but we are bombarded with it. GM food is at least still food, and our digestive tracts are forever encountering novel proteins whether from cross-breeding, gene manipulation, or viruses which constantly manufacture new genes and proteins; I'm a lot more freaked out by the chemicals they put in the packaging. So I'm all for organic if possible, especially if it comes in a good old burlap sack!
And the chicken pics are beautiful, by the way. I've got enough chickens this year that I'm not getting my usual spring chicks, and I miss them!

 

[Ariel188]

Hey, Ariel,
Didn't meat to ruffle the feathers! (Literally I guess...)
We can certainly agree to disagree about the most serious consequences of enabling the GMO growers, but I think we both agree they have issues, and are to be avoided for either environmental or health reasons, if not both. However, you can't really pin too much blame about the uptick in many of the recent (and epigenetic-related) human health concerns on GMO's because they largely arrived on scene after the rates of autism, etc, already started to spike. It may take more than my lifetime for there to be a good cause and effect relationship scientifically established, but as a scientist my money is going to be on the other, non-food exposures we get every day, such as disinfectants, detergents, flame retardants in our carpets, adhesives in building materials, etc. that have been introduced in large amounts since about the 1950's and growing ever since. Almost none of that is regulated but we are bombarded with it. GM food is at least still food, and our digestive tracts are forever encountering novel proteins whether from cross-breeding, gene manipulation, or viruses which constantly manufacture new genes and proteins; I'm a lot more freaked out by the chemicals they put in the packaging. So I'm all for organic if possible, especially if it comes in a good old burlap sack!

And the chicken pics are beautiful, by the way. I've got enough chickens this year that I'm not getting my usual spring chicks, and I miss them!

I totally agree with you here "disinfectants, detergents, flame retardants in our carpets, adhesives in building materials, etc" that stuff is also to blame for a lot of bad health. I avoid as much of that as possible. Vinegar cleans our house, and no aluminium deodorant, wood floors, etc. I am on it!

 

[Biologrady]

I try also! But it's hard...(she said while tossing a detergent pack in the washing machine and cleaning the oven with god knows what!!!)
And I just noticed today the lovely skin lotion I've been using all winter is made in China!
Good luck in your pursuits of organic living...I think I'm too far gone ;(

 

[Spangled]

I make my own Organic feed. I recently have also added Organic no soy, no corn, no GMO feed called Scratch and Peck. The mix I make is as follows so I do use kelp also! I am going to start Fermenting the feed today and see how that goes. People seem to swear it is amazing!

3 Cups soft white wheat
3 Cups hard red wheat
1 Cup kumut
1 Cup quinoa
1 Cup barley
1 Cup millet
1 Cup oat groats
2 Cups sunflower seeds
1 Cup split peas
1 Cup lentils
1 Cup sesame seeds
1/2 Cup flax seed
1 Cup ground seaweed (Kelp)

Just a couple thoughts ... if the past chicks were fed the above recipe, which I believe is an amended version of the old "Greener Pastures Farm" recipe by Rhonda, then that possibly could be part of the growth problem in the chicks. I thought you were feeding an organic feed based on the NRC 1994 guidelines. The Scratch and Peck feed which you recently added (I would guess the Layer version at this point) would be the type of feed (chick version) that I had thought you were feeding the slower growing chicks from last year.

It doesn't look like the Greener-Pastures-style feed recipe contains Vit D3, Methionine, minerals (Magnesium, Phosphorus, Calcium), and a number of other ingredients that are found on the tag of Scratch and Peck, which is a standard formula. If chicks aren't raised outside, then they can't get enough D3 from the sun. They need a supplement. Is there enough salt in the kelp for them? I'd have to look that up. I don't think so. The Methionine needs can only be supplied by animal protein or the synthetic (non-organic) additive DL Methionine. One thing that Methionine does is help chicks and hens grow feathers. Methionine is one of the 10 amino acids that chickens cannot manufacture on their own in their bodies. Methionine needs to be at the correct level in the chick's diet so that the other amino acids can be properly utilized. (Methionine is a "limiting amino acid.") If there's not enough Methionine, then growth will be impaired. That's why nearly all chick and chicken feeds all supplement with DL-Methionine. Methionine is also found in meat or fish, which are usually considered "ideal proteins." Ideal protein contains all amino acids.

Organic chick and chicken feeds are allowed to use the synthetic additive DL-Methionine in organic feed production. They get a waiver every now and then as needed because there isn't a "practical" way to get the amino acid in organic form.

Anyway, that's my guess (theory) as to why your organically fed chicks were smaller than the non-organically fed chicks ... you fed feed that didn't have all the vitamins, minerals, amino acids, etc., that are necessary for proper growth while the others fed regular chick feed that was formulated based on the 1994 Nutrient Requirements for Poultry standards put out by the National Research Council.

It's just a guess. Obviously not everyone feeds their chicks the same, but anyone who buys feed (organic or not) at the feed store is bound to get feed that is approved by the USDA and formulated based on the 1994 NRC standards 99% of the time. If they buy "scratch," that's something else. If they buy outdated feed, then it will be less than ideal for growth because the vitamins will have decayed and the oils turned rancid.

Anyway. I could be wrong. Who's to know at this point? Obviously what you were feeding couldn't be all that bad because your chicks didn't end up with all those horrible debilitating deformations and deaths from Vit K deficiency, Vit E deficiency, rickets and swollen hocks, feet lesions from a deficiency in one of the B vitamins, and perosis and all the others.

I think that the first 6 months of a layer's life are the most important because they are laying down the foundation ... the skeleton, muscles, egg laying apparatus, etc. It seems like it's a time to try to feed a tried and true feeding program ... at least that's what I feel comfortable with (as in the Scratch and Peck feed). It seems like a waste of time for me to raise up a chick that is not going to be a great layer because I raised it wrong. Soaking/fermenting feeds and experimenting will have less long-term effects on the grown chickens. I am not against soaking/fermenting ... I do it myself in the warm months ... on a limited basis for the laying hens, mostly based on what's easiest for me that week. ;-)

Oh, and the light thing. Years ago I had a batch of chicks that were smaller, yet fed and raised exactly the same as my others that were hatched earlier in the year--except this batch of chicks were in a darker coop where I kept the lights on. And I kept them on all night because they started pecking each other and I thought that if I kept the lights on all night, that they could see to get away from their neighbor who was pecking on them. So they had the lights on all the time until they were about 15 weeks old or something like that. When they ended up being smaller than the earlier hatched chicks, I started searching for a solution. One thing I found was that chicks need to have a period of darkness to grow properly. Those early weeks it doesn't matter so much, but after 8 weeks, they need to have the lights off at night or it goofs up their growth. Closing their eyes doesn't matter because the light goes through the eyelids and also their skulls and triggers their pineal gland which triggers other things and ends up affecting their growth. Part of it is hormonal. I don't remember where I read it (nor evidentally all the details), but it was from a study done at some university or college years ago. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Spangled]

Spangled I'm sorry you obviously thought I was being rude.

Nope. "Rude" didn't even enter my mind. I just felt we were talking at cross purposes (for lack of better term), with me confused by what you were saying.

And, yes, at one point, I got you confused with the original poster. Very sorry about that.

 

[Ariel188]

Just a couple thoughts ... if the past chicks were fed the above recipe, which I believe is an amended version of the old "Greener Pastures Farm" recipe by Rhonda, then that possibly could be part of the growth problem in the chicks. I thought you were feeding an organic feed based on the NRC 1994 guidelines. The Scratch and Peck feed which you recently added (I would guess the Layer version at this point) would be the type of feed (chick version) that I had thought you were feeding the slower growing chicks from last year.

It doesn't look like the Greener-Pastures-style feed recipe contains Vit D3, Methionine, minerals (Magnesium, Phosphorus, Calcium), and a number of other ingredients that are found on the tag of Scratch and Peck, which is a standard formula. If chicks aren't raised outside, then they can't get enough D3 from the sun. They need a supplement. Is there enough salt in the kelp for them? I'd have to look that up. I don't think so. The Methionine needs can only be supplied by animal protein or the synthetic (non-organic) additive DL Methionine. One thing that Methionine does is help chicks and hens grow feathers. Methionine is one of the 10 amino acids that chickens cannot manufacture on their own in their bodies. Methionine needs to be at the correct level in the chick's diet so that the other amino acids can be properly utilized. (Methionine is a "limiting amino acid.") If there's not enough Methionine, then growth will be impaired. That's why nearly all chick and chicken feeds all supplement with DL-Methionine. Methionine is also found in meat or fish, which are usually considered "ideal proteins." Ideal protein contains all amino acids.

Organic chick and chicken feeds are allowed to use the synthetic additive DL-Methionine in organic feed production. They get a waiver every now and then as needed because there isn't a "practical" way to get the amino acid in organic form.

Anyway, that's my guess (theory) as to why your organically fed chicks were smaller than the non-organically fed chicks ... you fed feed that didn't have all the vitamins, minerals, amino acids, etc., that are necessary for proper growth while the others fed regular chick feed that was formulated based on the 1994 Nutrient Requirements for Poultry standards put out by the National Research Council.

It's just a guess. Obviously not everyone feeds their chicks the same, but anyone who buys feed (organic or not) at the feed store is bound to get feed that is approved by the USDA and formulated based on the 1994 NRC standards 99% of the time. If they buy "scratch," that's something else. If they buy outdated feed, then it will be less than ideal for growth because the vitamins will have decayed and the oils turned rancid.

Anyway. I could be wrong. Who's to know at this point? Obviously what you were feeding couldn't be all that bad because your chicks didn't end up with all those horrible debilitating deformations and deaths from Vit K deficiency, Vit E deficiency, rickets and swollen hocks, feet lesions from a deficiency in one of the B vitamins, and perosis and all the others.

I think that the first 6 months of a layer's life are the most important because they are laying down the foundation ... the skeleton, muscles, egg laying apparatus, etc. It seems like it's a time to try to feed a tried and true feeding program ... at least that's what I feel comfortable with (as in the Scratch and Peck feed). It seems like a waste of time for me to raise up a chick that is not going to be a great layer because I raised it wrong. Soaking/fermenting feeds and experimenting will have less long-term effects on the grown chickens. I am not against soaking/fermenting ... I do it myself in the warm months ... on a limited basis for the laying hens, mostly based on what's easiest for me that week. ;-)

Oh, and the light thing. Years ago I had a batch of chicks that were smaller, yet fed and raised exactly the same as my others that were hatched earlier in the year--except this batch of chicks were in a darker coop where I kept the lights on. And I kept them on all night because they started pecking each other and I thought that if I kept the lights on all night, that they could see to get away from their neighbor who was pecking on them. So they had the lights on all the time until they were about 15 weeks old or something like that. When they ended up being smaller than the earlier hatched chicks, I started searching for a solution. One thing I found was that chicks need to have a period of darkness to grow properly. Those early weeks it doesn't matter so much, but after 8 weeks, they need to have the lights off at night or it goofs up their growth. Closing their eyes doesn't matter because the light goes through the eyelids and also their skulls and triggers their pineal gland which triggers other things and ends up affecting their growth. Part of it is hormonal. I don't remember where I read it (nor evidentally all the details), but it was from a study done at some university or college years ago. Take it for what it's worth.

WOW thank you very much for the detailed write up. Actually I did feed Scratch and Peck last year 2013, it was 2012 that I feed this mix. Currenlty with my hens I have 2 food containers out for them and I feed them one of each (my mix) and (scratch and peck mix.) As chicks I also gave them scrambled eggs, weeds from the yard with dirt clumps, grit, etc. I heard giving them canned sardines or tuna was good but I didnt do that. I will be hatching my own chicks this year for the first time and I planned on fermenting the scratch and peck starter feed. Oh I also gave them mealworms for about a month until I ran out, haha.

WOW interesting about the light!! I was planning on buying a Ecoglow 50 for my new hatches and I was thinking that was a big advantage they would be able to have darkness at night and sleep. Although when I did use the light bulb at least is was a red one not a bright white one. I think the EcogLow will be great for letting them sleep! I cant wait to see if that will do it for me this time. I am good about updateing my posts so I will let you know. I plan to ferment and have a ecoglow, teo things I have not done before and I cant wait to see if that makes all the difference!

 

[LonelyPageTurne]

Nope.  "Rude" didn't even enter my mind.  I just felt we were talking at cross purposes (for lack of better term), with me confused by what you were saying.

And, yes, at one point, I got you confused with the original poster.  Very sorry about that.

Oh good. So glad to hear that!