Dogs as Part of Free-Range Chicken Keeping System

[centrarchid]

Starting from a pup it takes two years to get a dog into physical and mental shape for providing protection. This is not limited to the larger breeds developed for sheep and goats, hunting dogs I use also require this interval. My dogs guard the property but use chickens as their alarm system. We are now a well oiled machine where methods vary with type of threat. The dogs, especially the elder male, had to learn through trial and error. Younger female was in part schooled by male. Next time we re-dog I will make certain age disparity is at least 24 months rather than the 18 months last time. I tried the imprinting as done with sheep and goats but the imprinting did not seem to stick. I guess behaviors did not jive between chickens and dogs. Dogs also know birds as individuals which did not think would be to degree realised.

 

[Sonya9]

Yup, that is how livestock guardian dogs are ideally raised, by older seasoned LGDs. A mature working dog will whoop the butts of pups and adolescents that get to rough with the stock. I have an Anatolian and they aren't considered fully mature until 4 years of age (they start guarding at 1 year BUT still show wild pup traits on occasion until much older).

 

[centrarchid]

We are still working out the magic of fencing. Some keeps various juvenile flocks apart and some serves to isolate breeding pen area from wide-ranging birds to help with bio-security. The remainder going up around perimeter is specifically for dogs; to keep mine in and the overwhelming packs of several large dogs that require more to repel them than I can afford. Fencing will eventually be used for.sheep and goats. My dogs and.even myself have been learning the particulars of how to position gates so we.can move fast between paddocks or more effeciently move pens and stock about.

 

[centrarchid]

Tonight my dogs and those belonging to neighbors are all stirred up barking. Mine are patrolling pathways heavily to south and male brought me out at about midnight whining. With my setup dogs recruit me when they cannot get at something such as a raccoon in tree or opossum in abandoned washing machine. This is good as rather that than have dogs tear something up trying to get at their target. Dogs at work in with sheep and goats are confined in much smaller areas and they bark all night. I can now see benefit of that if herds where free-range as that would enable knowing flock location from a distance.

 

[centrarchid]

Neighbor and I have an interesting dynamic that must be worked out. He and two other have free-ranging flocks with potential of coming into contact with my flock. He and one other have ducks as well and my female harasses the first neighbors ducks occasionally. To work on that I acquired my own darn ducks (I do not like ducks much) to train Lucy. She does well with mine for over last year but still harasses neighbor's ducks. My female is approaching 2 years and does great on varmints and even other dogs but she also harasses neighbor's LGD (Perro de Presa Canario). A couple days ago neighbor was walking perimeter of his property with his dog and my dogs, especially the female went out to harass the much larger dog. The neighbor released his dog at some point and he chased Lucy back towards our house. My male Scoob then challenged the larger dog in our yard where both placed heads on other withers. By that time I was very close and had already physically blocked the neighbor's dog making Lucy's getaway clean. My male would probably not do well against such a large dog in a fair fight even on our turf so I was very much prepared to intervene which would likely have scored me a couple bites before dog properly subdued. The dog also seemed less than fearful of me even when clearly on my turf. Neighbor saw altercation and came quickly over to retrieve his dog and I called my male back. This arrangement needs to be fixed quickly. Neighbor and I both need fences. He has an advantage where he does not have a driveway at boundary. Until then we must get dogs to respect property boundaries. In past my male in particular provided that neighbor with considerable protection and still does at night because neighbors dog is confined then. The fencing is going to be a real pain in the but as I have a lot of wooded area. Needs to be done not only to keep my dogs in but also neighbors dog out since my kids are very small and that dog gives me concern about human aggressiveness owing to it willing to stand firm against even a critter (me) almost four times its size. Once we do get this, then predators will have multiple flocks and all will have dogs ready to meet them.

 

[Sonya9]

I don't think your neighbor has a clue about how dangerous his dog can be. Letting the dog off leash to chase your dog? That is INSANE!!! You are very lucky the dog did NOT want to fight any of yours. And yes true livestock guardian breeds don't back down even against humans warning them off. They stand there and hold their ground and if need be they make YOU back down. Keep that in mind in case there is ever an aggressive encounter, get you and yours OUT of there and stop trying to make the dog leave. Physically back off to de-escalate the situation.

I have an Anatolian which is another aggressive very hard core livestock guardian. They are large and powerful (even more powerful than they look, I have had 90 lb Dobermans before but my 115 lb Anatolian is physically MUCH stronger than my Dobes ever were). They were bred to fight off wolves and other large predators so humans are nothing in comparison. Keep in mind they are VERY intelligent, not loose cannons like many pit bulls, but they aren't going to run away and back off when yelled at by humans and they usually aren't at all afraid to take a human on if they feel the need.

I love my dog dearly (he is a retired working dog turned house/companion dog) but I also know what he is capable of and my yard is securely fenced, when out of the yard he is NEVER off leash. Another thing about LGD breeds is that they do NOT listen to humans, their owners or anyone else when they go into protection mode. They cannot be trained for personal protection work like police dogs because of that, they will guard when THEY see a threat and they won't stop until THEY feel the threat is gone.

Your neighbor apparently doesn't have a clue and that could be a real recipe for disaster! Could easily turn into one of those awful dog attack situations and your neighbor will say "Well gosh...he has never done that before!". Is this dog young? It sounds like it may be if it is a male and your male dog started challenging him without being put in his place.

And yes get fences up fast too! I am not trying to make LGD's out to be bad dogs, they are brilliant and the best guards imaginable and I am sure you will have some and adore them in the future, I am just saying they are not something to play around with and your neighbor doesn't understand that.

 

[centrarchid]

I can not back of from my own ground. The dog must back off. It is not big relative to me, no LGD is' compares to me like a pitbull compares to most people. Neighbor and I need to have a discussion. Regardless of past encounters, I (and my dogs) have dominion over our property and will prepare to employ lethal force. My kids with oldest less than 3 will not be able to retreat as needed. The dog is also valued as a personal protector which may make for the potentially more human aggressive side.

I do not wan to derail the purpose of the thread with sidetracking on dog wars. Situation will be resolved so safety of stock can be maintained.

 

[centrarchid]

I am around typical LGD's as most are kept as about anyone in Midwest. At work we have nearly a dozen and farmers I work with also often have them as well. The common denominator is fencing. The dogs are being confined as much by fencing as are the stock. The dogs and often the stock were not bred to operate that way but everybody is being forced to adapt.

Dog in question is a 2 year old male so this is the start of the trouble age if their is to be one.


We are going to speed up our getting fence up. Problem is going to be able to get cars in and out. I really dislike gates, especially those with combinations that are hard to read after dark in rain when there is lightening.

I already have dogs that guard poultry against wildlife very well. If fencing comes into play, protection level for poultry will not be inferior to that realized with a standard (true) LGD. If I do go the standard LGD route it will be with Akbash's as they seem to be the most mobile and heat tolerant of those at work.

 

[Sonya9]

The dog is also valued as a personal protector which may make for the potentially more human aggressive side.

Yeah since mine became a house/companion dog at a year of age he typically only actively guards against adult human males and large birds of prey. He isn't worried about strange dogs or wildlife being a threat to us (and neither am I) but he makes darn sure a two legged predator isn't going to mess with his person, his car, or his home.

Realistically the neighbors dog was actually being quite good, he didn't start anything so you have to give him credit for that. He is only two and he will become a lot more dominant and sure of himself over the next two years so you are right, if there are going to be problems this is just the start. If it makes you feel any better chances are if he came by again and wanted to start trouble he would not have any interest in messing with your kids, he could be tempted by a more macho challenge though. He is young and he was excited to run over and investigate your dogs and such, course if he has done it once he is more likely to do it again and start thinking of your land as an extension of "his" territory.

 

[centrarchid]

Yeah since mine became a house/companion dog at a year of age he typically only actively guards against adult human males and large birds of prey. He isn't worried about strange dogs or wildlife being a threat to us (and neither am I) but he makes darn sure a two legged predator isn't going to mess with his person, his car, or his home.

Realistically the neighbors dog was actually being quite good, he didn't start anything so you have to give him credit for that. He is only two and he will become a lot more dominant and sure of himself over the next two years so you are right, if there are going to be problems this is just the start. If it makes you feel any better chances are if he came by again and wanted to start trouble he would not have any interest in messing with your kids, he could be tempted by a more macho challenge though. He is young and he was excited to run over and investigate your dogs and such, course if he has done it once he is more likely to do it again and start thinking of your land as an extension of "his" territory.

My land is not an extension of his territory by any stretch. He and I are going to tangle and he is going back with tail between legs or taking a one-way trip to compost heap.