Dominant and Recessive White and Other Colors "hiding"?

[RememberTheWay]

I have a few questions regarding dominant and Recessive White and the colors that can hide underneath of them

1- If both genes are present (dom/rec white) which is going to show?

2- if a bird has two copies of dominant white can it also have two copies of Recessive white? Or only one? Or none? Does it have to be one of each? Or are located at different places?

3- can any color hide under recessive white or only certain colors?

4- same question but for dominate white

I have two Easter egger hens that I've been hatching from. The rooster is an Ermine Ameraucana project bird. The two hens are first generation cross to an Americana roo (who definitely had blue) and leghorn hens. One hen has slate legs and is paint, the other is all white and has green legs.

The resulting chicks have mostly been ermine colored or dominant white. I have also hatched three blue chicks and one black, which I suspect are only coming from one hen. I'm assuming the blue/black chicks are coming from the paint hen with slate legs, but I am going to separate and label eggs to make sure. I actually wasn't expecting to get a black chick at all from this bunch but maybe that was flawed thinking on my part?

My last question is whether a bird can express both black and blue on the same bird? I have a couple chicks that are ermine patterned but appear to actually have both black "spots" and blue ones? I'm wondering how this is possible if the blue gene dilutes all the black plumage on a bird from black to blue, so how does this chick have both blue and black?

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

I have a few questions regarding dominant and Recessive White and the colors that can hide underneath of them

1- If both genes are present (dom/rec white) which is going to show?

Recessive white would technically express over dominant white if the bird had two copies of it, but it's possible it would be pure white either way depending on the other genes it might have. Recessive white essentially stops all pigment from being deposited in the feathering, whereas dominant white tends to be leaky and let red and gold pigments through, and some flecks of black when the bird is not pure for the gene.

2- if a bird has two copies of dominant white can it also have two copies of Recessive white? Or only one? Or none? Does it have to be one of each? Or are located at different places?

The two genes are not allelic; that is, they are located in different areas along the DNA strand. Dominant white is at the i-locus and recessive white is at the c-locus. So you could have a bird that carries two copies of both genes, yes.

3- can any color hide under recessive white or only certain colors?

Because of how it functions, preventing pigment from getting into the feather in the first place, a bird that is homozygous for recessive white, that is one that's carrying two copies of it, hides any other plumage coloring genes that they carry. As an example, White Silkies that are based on recessive white are fairly often genetically partridge-patterned, but because they have two copies of recessive white, they have pure white feathering.

4- same question but for dominate white

As I mentioned above, dominant white is leaky. Any pattern that has any kind of gold or red pigment in it, that gold or red will leak through dominant white even if the bird carries two copies of the gene. The birds that are dominant white based and solid white are generally solid black underneath, as homozygous dominant white will generally not let black leak through.

Black flecks often leak through in heterozygous individuals, however, those only carrying one copy of the dominant white gene. The amount of black flecking they get apparently depends on other genes like melanizers that they might carry, so you can have an I/i+ heterozygous dominant white individual with heavy flecking, all the way to an I/i+ heterozygous individual that is pure white.

I have two Easter egger hens that I've been hatching from. The rooster is an Ermine Ameraucana project bird. The two hens are first generation cross to an Americana roo (who definitely had blue) and leghorn hens. One hen has slate legs and is paint, the other is all white and has green legs.

The resulting chicks have mostly been ermine colored or dominant white. I have also hatched three blue chicks and one black, which I suspect are only coming from one hen. I'm assuming the blue/black chicks are coming from the paint hen with slate legs, but I am going to separate and label eggs to make sure. I actually wasn't expecting to get a black chick at all from this bunch but maybe that was flawed thinking on my part?

Based on their parentage, the two Easter-egger hens are heterozygous for dominant white, I/i+. Ermine as a variety is also heterozygous for dominant white, also I/i+. That means that in each cross, the i-locus can be inherited in 4 ways: I from both the father and the mother, I from the father and i+ from the mother, i+ from the father and I from the mother, or i+ from both the father and mother. There is no difference in expression whether the I or i+ comes from the father or mother, so you effectively have a 1 in 4 shot at I/I, 2 in 4 at I/i+, and 1 in 4 of i+/i+ in any of the chicks they produce. Those chicks that get i+/i+ are your blue and black chicks; they did not inherit dominant white, so they are not at all white.

My last question is whether a bird can express both black and blue on the same bird? I have a couple chicks that are ermine patterned but appear to actually have both black "spots" and blue ones? I'm wondering how this is possible if the blue gene dilutes all the black plumage on a bird from black to blue, so how does this chick have both blue and black?

No, it is not possible for them to really express both blue and black on the same bird. However, other genes can darken the shade of blue-gray and make it hard to tell from black. In my experience with such birds, certain parts of the body, especially the thighs and wings, are more apparently blue than others, so it's possible that variation in blue tone across the body is what you're seeing. However, blue can also sort of mess up and let black flecks or even a fully black feather or two through on occasion, so it could also be something like that at play as well. Pictures might help if you have any!

 

[The Moonshiner]

Recessive white needs two copies to show. If it only has one copy it would look the same as it would with no copies.
Recessive white will hid every color and/or pattern.
Dominate white only needs one copy to show but as you know on things like black or blue it usually (but not always) shows some specks or splotches of color. Two copies would hid all that.
Unlike RW dominate white doesn't cover gold tomes even with two copies. Google brown leghorn then Pyle leghorn and you'll see how the gold tones on a brown is still showing on the Pyle.
A bird can have both genes and any combination of one or two of either. Ya not located together.

 

[RememberTheWay]

Sidenote-

Recessive white would technically express over dominant white if the bird had two copies of it, but it's possible it would be pure white either way depending on the other genes it might have. Recessive white essentially stops all pigment from being deposited in the feathering, whereas dominant white tends to be leaky and let red and gold pigments through, and some flecks of black when the bird is not pure for the gene.




The two genes are not allelic; that is, they are located in different areas along the DNA strand. Dominant white is at the i-locus and recessive white is at the c-locus. So you could have a bird that carries two copies of both genes, yes.




Because of how it functions, preventing pigment from getting into the feather in the first place, a bird that is homozygous for recessive white, that is one that's carrying two copies of it, hides any other plumage coloring genes that they carry. As an example, White Silkies that are based on recessive white are fairly often genetically partridge-patterned, but because they have two copies of recessive white, they have pure white feathering.




As I mentioned above, dominant white is leaky. Any pattern that has any kind of gold or red pigment in it, that gold or red will leak through dominant white even if the bird carries two copies of the gene. The birds that are dominant white based and solid white are generally solid black underneath, as homozygous dominant white will generally not let black leak through.

Black flecks often leak through in heterozygous individuals, however, those only carrying one copy of the dominant white gene. The amount of black flecking they get apparently depends on other genes like melanizers that they might carry, so you can have an I/i+ heterozygous dominant white individual with heavy flecking, all the way to an I/i+ heterozygous individual that is pure white.




Based on their parentage, the two Easter-egger hens are heterozygous for dominant white, I/i+. Ermine as a variety is also heterozygous for dominant white, also I/i+. That means that in each cross, the i-locus can be inherited in 4 ways: I from both the father and the mother, I from the father and i+ from the mother, i+ from the father and I from the mother, or i+ from both the father and mother. There is no difference in expression whether the I or i+ comes from the father or mother, so you effectively have a 1 in 4 shot at I/I, 2 in 4 at I/i+, and 1 in 4 of i+/i+ in any of the chicks they produce. Those chicks that get i+/i+ are your blue and black chicks; they did not inherit dominant white, so they are not at all white.




No, it is not possible for them to really express both blue and black on the same bird. However, other genes can darken the shade of blue-gray and make it hard to tell from black. In my experience with such birds, certain parts of the body, especially the thighs and wings, are more apparently blue than others, so it's possible that variation in blue tone across the body is what you're seeing. However, blue can also sort of mess up and let black flecks or even a fully black feather or two through on occasion, so it could also be something like that at play as well. Pictures might help if you have any!

Do you happen to have a reference sheet for all the gene color/pattern/trait symbols that also has a visual representation image of what that color/pattern/trait looks like in reality? I have a hard keep all of it sorted, I'm trying to learn it, but without it written out in a way that shows symbol - written name- image, I'm having a hard time associating the symbol (when I'm reading) to what it actually means and looks like. If that makes sense? And it's not just for the genes in this specific thread, it's all of them

Would be super helpful if I could find something like what I described to refer to and learn from

 

[RememberTheWay]

The two genes are not allelic; that is, they are located in different areas along the DNA strand. Dominant white is at the i-locus and recessive white is at the c-locus. So you could have a bird that carries two copies of both genes, yes.

So what other genes (color /patterns) are also located at the I and c locus's?

 

[RememberTheWay]

. Pictures might help if you have any!

Maybe it is just different shades of blue? Will have to continue to watch it grow. At hatch I know there have been two that when inspecting the down "spots" I've seen a charcoal grey type spot and black as night spots. One of them is the bird in the photos. I couldn't figure out which one was the other one. I'll post pictures of the blue and black others in the next comment.

 

[RememberTheWay]

The all blue and black chicks from these birds

 

[RememberTheWay]

@pipdzipdnreadytogo does the gold/tan spot on the back of the yellow down chicks pictured above mean anything regarding that chicks genetics?

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

Sidenote-

Do you happen to have a reference sheet for all the gene color/pattern/trait symbols that also has a visual representation image of what that color/pattern/trait looks like in reality? I have a hard keep all of it sorted, I'm trying to learn it, but without it written out in a way that shows symbol - written name- image, I'm having a hard time associating the symbol (when I'm reading) to what it actually means and looks like. If that makes sense? And it's not just for the genes in this specific thread, it's all of them

Would be super helpful if I could find something like what I described to refer to and learn from

I don't, sorry! I remember most of them just from repetition and experience with them.

Most of the symbols do have some logical meaning behind them, though, if that helps! I know that c for recessive white is because it causes the birds to be colorless. I'm not honestly sure what the I stands for with dominant white, however.

So what other genes (color /patterns) are also located at the I and c locus's?

I don't think there are any other alleles at the c-locus other than c recessive white and C+ the wildtype for not being white. At least none that I can think of off the top of my head.

At the i-locus, you have i+ wildtype, I dominant white, I^d dun, and I^s smokey. I^d is a partial dominant that dilutes the black pigment to a brown to sort of gray-brown color with one copy and further to a pale gray-brown to whitish color with two copies. I^s dilutes the black pigment to a smokey blue-gray color similar to the blue gene, but from what I've read, I^s hasn't been seen outside of flocks used for research.

Maybe it is just different shades of blue? Will have to continue to watch it grow. At hatch I know there have been two that when inspecting the down "spots" I've seen a charcoal grey type spot and black as night spots. One of them is the bird in the photos. I couldn't figure out which one was the other one. I'll post pictures of the blue and black others in the next comment.

Those all look like shades of blue to me, but definitely keep an eye out for any weirdness as it feathers in more! Cute chicks!

@pipdzipdnreadytogo does the gold/tan spot on the back of the yellow down chicks pictured above mean anything regarding that chicks genetics?

Dominant white chick down can look anywhere from pale yellow to almost reddish. I don't know for a fact that that means anything. I would suspect that it means that chick is gold-based (as opposed to being silver-based), but I couldn't say that for sure beyond that suspicion. Unless it ends up feathering in with color leakage, whether it's gold or silver based likely won't make much of a difference to its final appearance.

 

[RememberTheWay]

Sidenote-

Do you happen to have a reference sheet for all the gene color/pattern/trait symbols that also has a visual representation image of what that color/pattern/trait looks like in reality? I have a hard keep all of it sorted, I'm trying to learn it, but without it written out in a way that shows symbol - written name- image, I'm having a hard time associating the symbol (when I'm reading) to what it actually means and looks like. If that makes sense? And it's not just for the genes in this specific thread, it's all of them

Would be super helpful if I could find something like what I described to refer to and learn from

Oh, man! I have been asking everyone I can think to find some kind of visual reference sheet and have not had any luck . Maybe I will have to make it myself