Dominique Thread!

[Sylvester017]

OK. What I was upset about is the fact that what have long been known as utility birds are suddenly being renamed "pet quality" - which is a misnomer since show birds and utility birds generally parted company before 1910. I would like to have some Dominiques that are closer to the standard, but I lack the expertise to breed for anything other than production.

You know - I love the Dom personality so much that whatever it is bred or classified as - utility or pet or show quality - is immaterial to me since I'm not a show circuit person and never have been. I love a certain number of breeds for different reasons. To my disappointment not all the breeds I love can be mixed in one backyard flock so I have to pick what is most important to me.

What characteristics are most important to me is that the breed first and foremost is healthy and not disabled like crossbeak, etc, plays "nice" with other breeds in the flock, that it has some decent egg productivity somewhere in the 4-5 eggs/week output, that it is a good forager, that it is lightweight especially on the feed, and that it is not an assertive breed that turns to aggression in its adult years. Now the Dom has the added benefit of being able to brood its own, has an outstanding, unafraid, curious personality, and is people and flock friendly. Size of eggs can be medium and maybe occasionally large but not as important to me as the temperament and usefulness of the bird in a backyard flock. If you have chickens and are housing and feeding them as a hobby the eggs do come into some importance but has to be balanced with a good temperament and self-reliant forager. I've had some lazy pig-eating breeds with low egg output and that is not a favourable characteristic in any breed category IMHO.

As for breeding show birds to "standard" there is no perfect bird. You can ask almost any rare bird breeder that "perfection" is elusive. Even the "perfect" birds have some minor flaw mentioned by the judges and is all subjective from judge to judge. I've talked with breeders who will not introduce new stock into their breeding programs because they are afraid of introducing some unbeknownest hidden trait from "new" bloodlines. Some have kept their breeding programs closed to their own flocks mixing and matching breeding pens until they get a satisfactory combination of type and color within their own lines. In this scenario you don't breed brother to sister as that is too much in-breeding but ok for father to daughter, etc. I'm talking about well-known decades breeders who have published breeding books and articles on the subject. Don't be discouraged as even these renowned breeders are on a continual path to reach perfection.

I talked with one breeder who is trying to perfect his Blue Breda and with no published info on the subject has resorted to researching an old out-of-print publication on the breeding of Blue Andalusians to get his breeding info about his Blue birds. I thought that was a very resourceful thing to do. I've talked with another breeder who improved his Buff Leghorn cockerels by infusing Phoenix, and Buff Minorcas into his line to improve type and color and the result was stunning. These are conversations I've had with breeders of chickens other than Doms. To me the challenge of Dom breeding is greater because obviously it would be difficult to cross-breed and still keep the integrity of the Dom clean. Such a sweet little chicken I would hate to see it compromised with infused breeding like they did to the BRs - today it's hit-and-miss whether you get a good BR or not with that mixed breed history in it. With the Dom as the BRs basic history you would think they would all have the same good temperament but since game bird or Malay and other breeds were infused you don't always get a calm BR - some are downright aggressive as we've found out.

 

[Sylvester017]

Wow, Sylvester017! You went to a lot of trouble to answer my question. Thank you.

A friend told me once that the only fowl he knew of that would eat ticks were barnyard type chickens, not the better bred breeds. Truth on that one remains to be seen. The Ovambo sounds like it gets the job done for the cattle but it may also be specialized in it's selection or where it procures its food. But since they are in Africa, it's a moot point. My suspicion is any great foraging bird eats them to some degree, but not all chicken are great foragers. I'm understanding that more all the time. I'm also finding it is a learned process just as much as one that is bred into the bird. Regardless, thank you for your information and efforts.

You're welcome. I just wanted to be sure to follow up on my promise to you when I came across the info again as I'm not that good at remembering everything.

And if you are looking for a good forager, stay away from the Cuckoo Marans. They are the laziest foragers but eat so much feed and only give about 3 eggs a week on average. I know a lot of people love Marans but I want an industrious bird which is why I like the Dom. Legs are industrious foragers too but assertive Mediterraneans don't always mix well with non-combative gentler breeds (i.e. Polish, Silkies, bantam breeds, EEs, Ameraucanas, etc).

Those South African breeds seem like hardy industrious breeds and pretty to boot but probably a bit on the wilder temperament seeing the environment they were bred in.

 

[Sylvester017]

Ummmm....... I'm on my second year of DCA membership.

My remarks on "pet quality" is that it strikes me as a rather silly renaming of what were formerly known as "utility fowl." It's just so sub/urban and reflects a view of livestock as a prestige item and not as useful stock. The same attitude that has led to the modern Quarter Horse being very well known for having the histrionic temperament of the Thoroughbred, and a nasty tendency to fall into paralysis if it is actually worked.

Now 150 eggs would seem to be minimal for a utility dual purpose fowl; mine lay on average four a week. Meat birds tend to lay below 150; while layers produce between 240 - 300 or more. I'm willing to accept four eggs a week from Dominiques because of their hardiness and thriftiness.

I've always been of the opinion that 4 eggs/week for a brooding type fowl is very good. My Silkies give 5-6 eggs/week but are so extremely broody that it cuts way into the yearly total but wonderful layers while they're laying! Now for non-broody types I would expect 6 eggs/week. My APA Amer started laying last Fall and is still producing 4-6 XL eggs/week. I'm looking forward to her first adult moult to give the poor thing a rest from laying so much - LOL!

 

[Sylvester017]

Another observation from this past spring.... My original assumption when i first acquired Dominiques, was that hatchery birds would be better layers overall than show stock.....When I was running my breeding pens this spring, most of my hatchery birds were in the laying yard, not in the breeding pens. A couple were but only a couple. I chose my breeding hens based on SoP and also pelvic spread. My breeding hens outlayed the run of the mill hatchery birds nearly 2:1.
I will continue to watch and evaluate, but in the case of Dominiques, I would submit that attention to breed standard with the proper tail spread (which directly coorelates to the pelvic spread) will result in overall improved lay rates. The Dominique hen standard reflected the qualities that were valued in the breed. Don't breed hens that have pinched or wry tails. Make sure that their tails are at about 45 degrees. Just a couple of the many things I look for. We'll see what this years numbers look like when the time comes.

I am so glad you mentioned the tail spread relating directly to the pelvic spread. In talking with a breeder of a different chicken breed I was concerned that my non-broody was really laying a LOT of XL eggs for such a small bird 4.5-lbs. He was of the opinion that it was ok for a small bird to lay that many and large eggs if they had enough of a pelvic spread. I told him that may be so but I was still concerned that so many large eggs still HAS to nutritionally take a lot out of the smaller bodied hen and her shells were thinner than her sister who layed more solid shells. 45% of the breed is documented to have or die from ovarian/reproductive issues by age 4 - he said I had given him something to think about. Breeders are wonderful to take all aspects of a breed into perfection but over-production can be just as much a problem as under-production. There are so many factors that contribute to egg production besides the bird's genetics - there's diet, supplements/treats, parasitic controls, flock conditions/housing, climate, just all sorts of factors.

You sound like a responsible breeder that knows his Dom facts - I just wanted to share and get your input since Dom hens have a smaller body size. One thing I would not expect from a Dom are over-sized eggs and IMO 4 eggs/week is darn good for a perky active little bird.

 

[wsmith]

I am so glad you mentioned the tail spread relating directly to the pelvic spread.  In talking with a breeder of a different chicken breed I was concerned that my non-broody was really laying a LOT of XL eggs for such a small bird 4.5-lbs.  He was of the opinion that it was ok for a small bird to lay that many and large eggs if they had enough of a pelvic spread.  I told him that may be so but I was still concerned that so many large eggs still HAS to nutritionally take a lot out of the smaller bodied hen and her shells were thinner than her sister who layed more solid shells. 45% of the breed is documented to have or die from ovarian/reproductive issues by age 4 - he said I had given him something to think about.  Breeders are wonderful to take all aspects of a breed into perfection but over-production can be just as much a problem as under-production.  There are so many factors that contribute to egg production besides the bird's genetics - there's diet, supplements/treats, parasitic controls, flock conditions/housing, climate, just all sorts of factors. 

You sound like a responsible breeder that knows his Dom facts - I just wanted to share and get your input since Dom hens have a smaller body size. One thing I would not expect from a Dom are over-sized eggs and IMO 4 eggs/week is darn good for a perky active little bird.

Very true. I wouldnt want a Dom hen to lay more than 200 eggs over the course of a year. I don't think she could handle it. And we don't want the Dom hens to start looking like a barred Leghorn either....

 

[lazy gardener]

? re: egg stats. When you mention x number of eggs/year, I'm assuming that you're basing your year on POL to the same date the following year??? How do you fit broodiness into those stats? Thanks. I'm learning a lot here, and really enjoying the conversations from experienced breeders/keepers, both as it relates to Doms, which we all love, but also as it relates to other breeds. Keep on keeping on!!!

 

[wsmith]

? re: egg stats.  When you mention x number of eggs/year, I'm assuming that you're basing your year on POL to the same date the following year???  How do you fit broodiness into those stats?  Thanks.  I'm learning a lot here, and really enjoying the conversations from experienced breeders/keepers, both as it relates to Doms, which we all love, but also as it relates to other breeds.  Keep on keeping on!!!

thats a calendar year for the entire flock as a whole, old and young.

 

[lazy gardener]

thanks.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

Another observation from this past spring.... My original assumption when i first acquired Dominiques, was that hatchery birds would be better layers overall than show stock.....When I was running my breeding pens this spring, most of my hatchery birds were in the laying yard, not in the breeding pens. A couple were but only a couple. I chose my breeding hens based on SoP and also pelvic spread. My breeding hens outlayed the run of the mill hatchery birds nearly 2:1.
I will continue to watch and evaluate, but in the case of Dominiques, I would submit that attention to breed standard with the proper tail spread (which directly coorelates to the pelvic spread) will result in overall improved lay rates. The Dominique hen standard reflected the qualities that were valued in the breed. Don't breed hens that have pinched or wry tails. Make sure that their tails are at about 45 degrees. Just a couple of the many things I look for. We'll see what this years numbers look like when the time comes.

I'd love to have birds that are closer to the standard of perfection; the problem is I can't locate any here. I have never suggested that "hatchery birds" would necessarily outlay SOP birds - but unfortunately, they often do as more than a few SOP breeders of many different breeds have paid no attention at all to anything other than conformation.

I'm not sure that pelvic spread in and of itself is correlated with laying ability since the pelvis widens when the hen is in lay. A couple of mine have what are probably considered overly wide tails. My closest to standard girl has incomplete barring that does not reach to the edge of the feathers.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

You're welcome. I just wanted to be sure to follow up on my promise to you when I came across the info again as I'm not that good at remembering everything.

And if you are looking for a good forager, stay away from the Cuckoo Marans. They are the laziest foragers but eat so much feed and only give about 3 eggs a week on average. I know a lot of people love Marans but I want an industrious bird which is why I like the Dom. Legs are industrious foragers too but assertive Mediterraneans don't always mix well with non-combative gentler breeds (i.e. Polish, Silkies, bantam breeds, EEs, Ameraucanas, etc).

Those South African breeds seem like hardy industrious breeds and pretty to boot but probably a bit on the wilder temperament seeing the environment they were bred in.

Heck, I've found that Marans tend to beat up Barred Rocks. I like Doms because they get along well among themselves and seem to do well with most of the other American class birds. A lot of RIRs are production strains and some are downright nasty and cannibalistic.

Doms are productive, efficient as a result of being vigorous foragers, tough, hardy, friendly, alert, curious, and seem very aware of predators. I love their vigorous foraging - I haven't seen a snail around here in weeks - although it is a little disconcerting that the Keystone Koop persists in trying to catch and eat hummingbirds.

They are also the funniest chickens I have ever had. When I open the back door and come out, it looks like a bouquet of pheasants bursting cover out there as some vault into the air and literally fly over the picnic table and the yard chairs in order to be first in line for any potential snack. In the absence of a snack, they often settle down around me and tell me all about their day, and to inquire as to when snacks might be served.