d'Uccle color genetics

[Megs]

well this thread has been a lovely (if not confusing) read! lol

i have been hatching some chicks from my D'uccle pen that consists of 2 mille fleur roosters, 4 mille fleur hens and 2 porcelain hens. So far about 10% have been porcelain! which has me excited! i knew nothing of genetics when i bought them but have been doing much research, i guess somewhere in the line porcelain was crossed in and some of my mille fleur are split lavender which gave me some lav babies!

 

[lilcrow]

Quote:
That's exactly what I thought would work, too. It seemed to me that all you would have to do is pick up the autosomal gene by breeding to the Millie Fleur then go back with the lavender and you'd have porcelain, but I couldn't get it to work in the color calculator. As I stated earlier, either I'm not making the right crosses with the right parents or not following it out far enough. Something's wrong with my science.

 

[wegotchickens]

TurtleFeathers, I do not have any black or black mottled d'Uccles. But if the MF x Lav thing works then I will

I don't know what the letters would be for butterscotch. I know I'm not the only one working on them. The roo above, with a buff mottled hen, bred gold splash in the only cockeral so far, a lovely cream in some chicks, and a pale & fairly even gold tone in some of the others. They're quite young still, so I'm waiting to see what the final color will be.

Buff mottled:

Gold splash cockeral:

He's actually grown a little more striking since this pic was taken, and he has lovely hocks & foot feathers.
His counterpart is an even cream with no mottling so far (very back of the pic). They are about 9 weeks old.
The other chicks are younger. And I have 2 from someone else's project which are really pretty and have some gold-laced feathers on them right now. Not sure if that will stick around (one is directly behind the cockeral).

 

[lilcrow]

wegotchickens, have you tried using the calculator that gives you the choice of visual examples? Here's the link: http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html
If you click on ? I think "Show examples" it will drop down a menu of all the color/pattern choices of chickens that there are and you can pick the porcelain, mille fleur, etc. The only problem is, occasionally there is a difference in the European names of the colors and the Americanized versions. On this version, let's say you pick the Mille Fleur pattern; everyone has been kind of getting hinky about the business of Locus, etc. but on this calculator you can easily change the black patterned gold mille fleur to blue patterned gold mf by going down the column to the "letters" that stand for blue which is BL or bl. Click on the drop down menu and change it to BL/bl+blue (andalusian), you'll see you're chicken turn into a blue mille fleur. It's a way cool tool.

 

[Yeagin1]

Thank you lilcrow for starting this thread. It's both educational and very informative and something we all need to learn if we're serious about breeding them. I've just started and have been trying to learn as much as I can and will be breeding my birds as close to the standard as possible. I'm very glad to have found there are others wanting to breed their birds for improvement also and are so willing to help each other.

I agree with lilcrow, the genetics for horses is a peace of cake compared to chickens. With the horses I was more concerned with conformation than color but with these little guys your breeding for both and that's a challenge.
Sandy

 

[Chris09]

wegotchickens :

I don't know what the letters would be for butterscotch

Butterscotch is a color and not a Gene.
I don't think the is a Butterscotch color chickens.. Where did you here of the color?
I know that there is a Butterscotch color in ducks (Call Ducks) but never heard of a Butterscotch in chickens...
This is what the Butterscotch color in duck looks like.. But of course chickens would be different...
( M+M+ lili e+e+ BlBl C+C+ s+s+ B+B+ r+r+ D+D+ Bu+Bu+)

Chris​

 

[lilcrow]

Quote:
Butterscotch is a color and not a Gene.
I don't think the is a Butterscotch color chickens.. Where did you here of the color?
I know that there is a Butterscotch color in ducks (Call Ducks) but never heard of a Butterscotch in chickens...
This is what the Butterscotch color in duck looks like.. But of course chickens would be different...
( M+M+ lili e+e+ BlBl C+C+ s+s+ B+B+ r+r+ D+D+ Bu+Bu+)

Chris

OK, I'm going to stick my neck out here and hope I don't get it loped off. You are correct Chris, Butterscotch is not a color in chickens and if there are breeders that are working on this project they really need to identify what color/colors they are using genetically in their programs to achieve their results. They also need to establish their goal, clearly. It is impossible to look a two chickens and think, "Oh, I like the way those two look and if I breed them together, those colors should produce xyz," and when I say "xyz" I'm not talking about a genetic code, I'm talking about the "Butterscotch" or "Calico" or "Caramel Corn" or whatever name you decide to attach to it. Here's where I'm sure I'm going to get shot. There is a specific formula that will produce, for instance, spangling or Mille Fleur. If a breeder follows that "recipe" it is guaranteed that he/she will produce the Mille Fleur pattern within the predicted allowance of time. Of course there is still the work that needs to be done on clarity of color, pattern and type, etc., but the bird will have the basic color pattern. I think I'll leave it at that, but just to say one more time, if a breeder is going to work on a project, it behooves them to gain the necessary understanding of color to get to where they are going.
I say all of this knowing that I don't have that knowledge yet. That is why I am here, hoping that there are some of the genetics guru folks that will jump in here and set us/me on the right path.

 

[TurtleFeathers]

Quote:
Butterscotch is a color and not a Gene.
I don't think the is a Butterscotch color chickens.. Where did you here of the color?
I know that there is a Butterscotch color in ducks (Call Ducks) but never heard of a Butterscotch in chickens...
This is what the Butterscotch color in duck looks like.. But of course chickens would be different...
( M+M+ lili e+e+ BlBl C+C+ s+s+ B+B+ r+r+ D+D+ Bu+Bu+)

Chris

OK, I'm going to stick my neck out here and hope I don't get it loped off. You are correct Chris, Butterscotch is not a color in chickens and if there are breeders that are working on this project they really need to identify what color/colors they are using genetically in their programs to achieve their results. They also need to establish their goal, clearly. It is impossible to look a two chickens and think, "Oh, I like the way those two look and if I breed them together, those colors should produce xyz," and when I say "xyz" I'm not talking about a genetic code, I'm talking about the "Butterscotch" or "Calico" or "Caramel Corn" or whatever name you decide to attach to it. Here's where I'm sure I'm going to get shot. There is a specific formula that will produce, for instance, spangling or Mille Fleur. If a breeder follows that "recipe" it is guaranteed that he/she will produce the Mille Fleur pattern within the predicted allowance of time. Of course there is still the work that needs to be done on clarity of color, pattern and type, etc., but the bird will have the basic color pattern. I think I'll leave it at that, but just to say one more time, if a breeder is going to work on a project, it behooves them to gain the necessary understanding of color to get to where they are going.
I say all of this knowing that I don't have that knowledge yet. That is why I am here, hoping that there are some of the genetics guru folks that will jump in here and set us/me on the right path.

I'm right there with ya Lilcrow - I've heard several people mention "butterscotch" d'uccles recently, and I can't find any info about them. The "buff mottled" and "gold splash" are new ones on me. The ones in wegotchickens's photos appear *to me* like gold necks that are heavy on the white, especially based on the previous discussion about the lavenders producing blue chicks - but I can't say for sure. And "splash" has nothing to do with gold, so I'm REALLY confused - not saying she's wrong, just that I'm confused...

This is why hobby names get people so mixed up.

So don't worry about getting your head lopped off when you stick your neck out - cuz they'll have to do mine, too, and I won't go down easily!!! LMAO! There IS a genetic explanation/recipe for these and other varieties - I'd just like to know what they are!!!

Wegotchickens - what varieties are you using to breed "butterscotch", "gold splash" and "buff mottled" chicks? I mean, what did you start with in the original parents? Can you walk us thru the generations? Just trying to understand the genetics behind them, thats all.

 

[wegotchickens]

I aquired the Buff Mottled (got that name from a matching photo on the Feathersite d'Uccle page) and the poor porcelain as a pair from someone who said they'd planned on doing "Butterscotch' d'Uccles. I thought it was a lovely idea, envisioning something even in tone like my Lavenders but of golden hue. That's my goal. I know they aren't a 'true color' and I can't show them.
Both of those birds are pictured in previous posts.
I don't know their parentage.

I was calling the cockeral a splash because as he's developed he's got 2 different tones of gold and may yet show some blue from his daddy. I can't get a more recent picture today (orchestra tonight). Will try to get one for tomorrow.

My lavenders have bred only lavenders when with the lav roo.
It was when the hens were bred to the porcelain that there were color issues. That was for my daughter's science project as well as my own education.

I'm a hobbist. My birds will never be famous. They will always be loved, because even the ones I don't breed will go to family friends who love 'eye-candy' birds.
I know the 'learn-as-you-go' method isn't what true breeders want to see, but that's how I learn. As long as I don't falsely advertise my birds as something they're not than I don't see the harm.
If I could find a d'Uccle breeder to apprentice myself to, I would, in a heart beat. I can find no such person in my area.

If I'm not qualified to participate here, that's fine. I will leave it to all the experts and continue on my own, quietly.

Didn't mean to step on any toes.

 

[Henk69]

Creating Porcelain.

http://kippenjungle.nl/chickenreport.php?id=4

Note that the lavender parent is gold based here. If not the percentages are even lower.

If you cross the F1 with either the millefleur or the lavender parent you WONT get any porcelains.