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d'Uccle color genetics

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by lilcrow, Apr 24, 2010.

  1. Yeagin1

    Yeagin1 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Wegotchicks, we're just hobby breeders but that doesn't mean we can't breed to improve our birds. We're all here to learn and I hate to say this but I usually learn more by my mistakes...lolol...I plan to get different colors and eventually experiment with them but I need to learn a lot more than I know now before trying.

    I think we all would love to have a breeder to apprentice us but if we all continue working together, sharing our successes and our Oops we all can learn together.

    I also want those two Mille hens you have have on your site [​IMG]
    Sandy
     
  2. TurtleFeathers

    TurtleFeathers Fear the Turtle!

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    Quote:You're not stepping on anyone's toes!!! And you're as qualified to participate here as the rest of us are!!! We're all here to learn. So please don't take offense to anything that *I* said, or anyone else for that matter. Its just that some of us know a bit more about genetics than the rest of us do, and if we all put our heads together and discuss things, we might be able to alleviate some confusion!

    Lets face it: hobby names are confusing - and sometimes they're misleading. Not intentionally misleading - but when we have people working on similar projects, some of which may or may not be genetically the same, and they're using the same names for genetically different birds (or different names for genetically LIKE birds) things get all mixed up. The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing, and when someone buys project eggs or project birds, they really have no idea what they have. Sometimes the person selling the project eggs/birds doesn't have any idea what they have. Thats ok tho - they may have different goals in mind, and they may learn differently (by doing vs. by genetic recipes).

    Oh, and keep in mind that to further confuse things, official European names for some of our US official colors can be different also - I noticed this on Feathersite, and some of the names on Henk's calculator. Add THIS to hobby names, and its a wonder anyone can keep track!!! LOL!!

    IMO, the basis for all these unrecognized varieties and projects comes down to genetics - and GOOD record keeping. Some projects may never become recognized by any official governing body, but in order to keep these projects headed in the right direction, we must know the genetics behind what we have. Otherwise, we just end up with a bunch of oddly colored (although probably very beautiful) birds!

    BUT... Even with the best record keeping, projects can take a step backwards now and again. (I myself am guilty of not keeping the best records on paper - much of what I have done is in my head, only because I know alittle of the genetics behind my birds). IMO, projects should have a goal. And in order to achieve a goal, the object is to keep moving forward. In order to move forward - whether your goal is to A) become famous B) to create show birds for a new official variety or C) to produce a bunch of pretty colored well loved pets for your family and friends (or science projects!) - one must know the genetics behind what they have and keep track of it, whether its on paper or in our heads [​IMG]. Otherwise, we're just breeding haphazardly, and not getting anywhere - and will never reach ANY goal. And that's where culling comes into play - by "culling" I DO NOT necessarily mean "killing" - I mean removing certain birds from the breeding flock by putting them in another pen, finding them another home, etc...

    Ok, sorry to go off on that tangent... Back to what we were saying....

    Does anyone know what is behind "butterscotch" d'uccles??? If there are other people working on them besides wegotchickens, surely someone here must know? Just say I wanted to create them from scratch - where would I start?

    I looked at the "buff mottled" on Feathersite, and they look like Gold (or golden?) Necks to me - anyone else think so? And so, I stand behind what I said before about wegotchickens's photo of the "buff mottled" - that one looks like a gold neck to me as well, just heavy on the white (or I should say "splash"?) areas. I honestly have no idea what the "gold splash" is, but until we know just what is behind that one "porcelain" rooster and the "buff mottled" hen, we may never unravel this! LOL! Or maybe I'm the only one that wants to? In which case, I'll stop... [​IMG]

    Wegotchickens - I don't mean to sound as if I'm picking on you - its just that I LOVE a good genetic mystery, and it appears that you have one with that rooster of yours, and the subsequent offspring! I think they're beautiful - I just want to know WHAT they are!!! LOL! Maybe I should just shut up and buy some of your eggs? If you sell eggs, please let me know - I'd love some of your lavenders as well...
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2010
  3. Sonoran Silkies

    Sonoran Silkies Flock Mistress

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    Quote:No, because the two genes are not linked. Some chicks will inherit two copies of one gene and one copy of the other. Some will inherit two copies of one gene and none of the other. Some will inherit one copy of both genes; some will inherit one copy of one gene and none of the other. Add those to your outcomes and I think they are all covered, but the percentages would have to be reworked. Not my specialty. You need to do a two-gene punnet square.
     
  4. wegotchickens

    wegotchickens DownSouth D'Uccles & Silkies

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    I do know that Europe and the US have different names. I used to call my lavenders 'self-blue' but that got confusing for people. Switching to just calling them lavenders rather than 'blues' has taken me some time, and I still catch myself writing 'b' on eggs instead of 'L'.

    I could confuse things worse by saying I want to have 'silver & gold' chickens running around my yard. But I would mean butterscotch & lavender [​IMG]
    But that IS my ultimate goal... Purely for my own fun and enjoyment.

    Some records are in my head but I am currently putting them into an Excel spreadsheet with photos and dates. I can see that my head is soon to be overflowing with:
    [​IMG] [​IMG] X [​IMG] [​IMG] = [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I have some books on poultry genetics. They've been very good at causing [​IMG]
    I will get them back out and try again off and on.

    I do sell hatching eggs. The Lav I sold as slightly better than pet quality, since they've won at shows but I'm not happy with them. I just rearranged my Lavenders, though. Put in a cockeral with better tail feathers since the original roo had more of a cochin tail than I wanted. He also had too much wattle. I'm trying to "fix the barn without damaging the paint". So until I know the new man is doing his duty and not just going through the motions I won't be selling those for a while. Just baking cakes & checking for fertility.

    I have added a couple of butterscotch eggs in as extras for a couple of people with a variety of d'Uccles. Hhammack hatched a couple. A couple went to AK. Everyone I've sent them to knows they're project birds, and not SQ.

    The lady I got my 2 extra butters from has a variety of d'Uccles and said she was curious about crosses, and I was getting a couple of resulting eggs. I plan to follow up and see what she bred to get to this point because I love these 2 and their color. Maybe I can get her on this thread as well. I'm just happy because they both appear to be female.
    I think the gold-necked d'Uccles, or variations thereof, are a good place to start. I can't find true gold-necks in my area so I went with what appeared to be the next closest thing.

    I do sell MF eggs when they're laying. They are truly from heritage stock and are very slow to mature and very late to lay. They also take a break any time the weather gets ugly [​IMG] It's hard to sell eggs when the birds are undependable. These are perfect SQ, and have won BoB for roo & hens at several ABA shows.
    I had bought some MF eggs from someone else, thinking I'd add fresh blood to the flock. I'm selling all the chicks I hatched though. They are coming in with white too early and too heavy. I will not sacrifice MF color for egg production, so my little flock is staying closed. I haven't learned enough about poultry genetics and color combos, but I have on d'Uccle show qualifications. My MF are perfect in form & color and I won't be tampering with that, even for eggs!

    Just out of curiosity:
    Is mottled an even coloration (almost a pattern) and splash a random coloration ( irregular patches)? Or is there a better definition of each?
     
  5. Sonoran Silkies

    Sonoran Silkies Flock Mistress

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    Quote:What is gold splash and what is butterscotch? Genetically, I mean? This is where hobby names get confusing to me.

    The picture with the rooster and hens APPEAR to be lavender, IMO. But again, to the untrained eye, a mix of lavender and andalusian blue MAY not be easily recognizable. And neither will it be in a photo on a message board, I don't think.

    The single rooster in the pic looks too dark to be a "pure" porcelain, IMO. He may be a mix of andalusian blue and porcelain? That may be where the one hen came from that produces the blue MF chicks? Thats just a guess tho, so don't hold me to it.

    If you have any blacks or black mottled hens, I would breed the single rooster in that pic to them - if you get andalusian blue chicks (they will be mottled) then you'll know he's the one causing the trouble. [​IMG]

    He looks to me to be the problem, too. His creamy buff could be caused from a different gold dilution gene.
     
  6. TurtleFeathers

    TurtleFeathers Fear the Turtle!

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    Oh, Sonoran!!! Thank GOODNESS you're here!!! LOL!!

    Do YOU know what genetics are behind a "butterscotch" d'uccle???? (In plain English, please?)
     
  7. Doug the Chicken Man

    Doug the Chicken Man Chillin' With My Peeps

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    So my blue mille fluer roo to blue mille fluer hen could have produced a golden neck hen. It is the only one that is not either a blue or black mille fluer.

    Now the experiment will be what happens when I add the Lemon Mille Fleur roo that We got on the weekend at an auction. Henk's Calulator says I get more Lemon Mille Fluer.
    About 50 % Blue Lemon Mille fluer and 50% Black Lemon Mille Fleur if crossed to My Blue Mille fluer hen. If crossed to my black mille fluer hen it should be all black lemon mille fluer in theory.
    If I cross to Lavendar I should get Black.

    I have learned a lot about the genetics of chicken breeding from this forum and all the helpfull people on her.

    Let the education continue.
     
  8. lilcrow

    lilcrow Chillin' With My Peeps

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    OK Doug, now we need to unravel one more piece here. You make reference to Lemon Mille Fleur. Can you clarify for us what you think the genetic make up is of this bird. Do you think it is a true Citroen? If so, do you know who bred it and was it deliberate, etc.?
     
  9. Doug the Chicken Man

    Doug the Chicken Man Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Near Ottawa, Ontario
    I got him from an auction on the weekend.
    I have the name of the person who sold it an am planning on contacting him for more info. He is still in quarentine for quite awhile Yet.

    Un sure of his back ground yet. but it might be interesting to see what comes out in controlled test breedings.

    Here is a picture of him in my daughters hand. it is not the best picture of him but it is the best we have at the moment.

    [​IMG]

    There are other pictures of them on Feathersite.

    http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGK/Millies/BRKMilleFleur.html
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2010
  10. lilcrow

    lilcrow Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote:By Golly he sure looks like a Citroen! WOW!! Please keep us/me posted on how his color breeds. Was he sold as Lemon or Citroen? I'm just fascinated!! This is the first of this color that I've known of in the US. You don't have any Citroen or Citrine or whatever hens?
     

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