d'Uccle color genetics

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misfitmorgan said:
Golden necks will not give you a mottled blue unless they are those from such places as ideal or ideal lineage because ideal does not seperate all their birds for breeding in the D'uccle line. In fact they put non-like together, as in Black and White D'uccles in one pen, Golden neck and Blue in another pens etc and whatever it visually looks like is what it is sold as. Making a mottled blue only works with those Golden Necks who are actually split to Blue, not all Golden necks from Ideal are split to Blue and certainly a very high percentage of non-hatchery Golden Necks are not split to Blue either. Only the tail feathers will tell you if it is split to Blue or not and only sometimes.
A Splash D'uccle is not known as a Golden neck. There is not such thing as a splash D'uccle, they are all either mottled or un-patterned. Splash is a random pattern of usually unsymetrical colors on different birds. As in the mottled white pattern on any color bird does not qualify it as a splash and does not mean it is carrying splash genes, they carry the mottled gene only.


EDIT: A Mille Fleur and a Golden Neck are also not the same color line. So many people keep thinking they are, i dont know where they are getting that from.
As far as i am aware and i am very possibly wrong, mottled and splash are the same thing in D'uccles because they do not have a true splash. As in they are not randomly colored with secondary color....they instead have a pattern of a secondary color (MF have more then one obviously)
Click to expand...
i am at the mercy of my information sources. some of my birds do originate from the ideal line and do behave like B/B/S in breeding, in fact i have a few of the GN's with occasional black or blue partial feathers (see pic below). outside the US a buff mottled is said to exist. i have never had one to breed so i dont know if they are true, but if they were different than splash they would breed true and not fade if crossed, right? ideal posts the stated genetics that
"
Blue Mille Fleur d'Uccle Bantams are a rare variety. They have the same genetic makeup as Mille Fleur d'Uccles; known as Belgian Blue Mille Fleur Bearded d'Uccle Bantams in the Standard, with the addition of the incompletely dominant autosomal Blue (Bl) gene.
Standard weights at maturity are male-26 oz, and hen-22 oz.
DNA-helix-icon.png
The blue (Bl) gene only has an effect on black plumage resulting in blue plumage when the blue gene is present in the heterozygous state (Bl bl). Other plumage colors are not affected by the blue gene. When blue (Bl bl) males are mated with blue (Bl bl) females, the ratio of colors produced is as follows: 1 black (bl bl), 2 blue (Bl bl) and 1 splash (Bl Bl) (white with a blue cast). Any blue variety ordered from Ideal Poultry may include chicks with black, blue or splash plumage patterns"

from the site http://www.edelras.nl/belgians/genetics.htm
"Colour Breeding Lines:
* Cuckoo, Black, Lavender
* Blue, Black, Splash
* Millefleur, Blue Millefleur, Golden Neck (Splash Millefleur)..."

using the chicken calculator (on the bottom section of the page i cited), i get the 3 phenotypes. from my understanding the mottled pattern is in mille fleurs, they just have a brown and black (or dilutions thereof) feather with a white tip instead of a solid colour feather with a white tip. GNs and Buff mottleds shouldnt be the same thing (see show standards below) since the GNs seem to have nearly all of the black from the mille fleur knocked out-so no gene production (or nearly so) for the black pigment, if they were true buff mottleds they would have white tipped hackle feathers and not like many of mine and have white feathers outlined in brown on the neck, tail and wings (corresponding to the black 'hotspots' in most milles). genetically a buff mottled should have no black pigment to knock out so this pattern of white is limited to the original true white tips, resulting in a phenotype similar (other than base colour) to this ( http://belgianduccle.hypermart.net/mottled.html ) , now the way they describe the GN phenotype does not meet with what i have since mine have the lacing i mentioned above on the neck ( http://belgianduccle.hypermart.net/goldenneck1.html ) - and my phenotype is what you would get by knocking out a poorly patterned mille fleur which has excessive black in the neck. according to the breed standards described for mottled vs GN in the site listed (sorry hyperlink doesnt work on cut and paste here) then the obvious difference in tail and primary /secondary wing feathers indicates that they are two different 'colour' patterns.

the second article on this page ( https://sites.google.com/site/belgianbantamclub/breedingbelgianbantams ) explains a bit more, so it does come down to geneotype vs phenotype - different genetics may result in a similar looking result. most people look at the results and one would have to do many test matings (requiring time and records) to determine the genes in their lines. it may be a case of 'if it walks like a duck' since most are concerned with the end result (phenotype), i will know more when the eggs from my pattern pens start being laid, and all i will know is what is going on in my lines. from what i have read though breeding GN to GN can result in more and more white and very pale birds and this may explain my washed out ones.

the b/b/s proof would be seeing true blue (not the lavender called blue) d'uccles and even though i know blues exist ( http://www.backyardpoultry.com/old/index.php?page=./breeds/bel.html ) i cant find any of the result of their crossing -a true splash bird. even this website ( http://www.britishbelgianbantamclub.com/gallery.html) doesnt show a splash ---so perhaps there is more to their genetics. all i can do is let you know the results of my breedings (when they start to lay)

here is a pic of one of my GN's showing the splash influence (not all have this and less so in the females-but they have less black to 'loose' than the males). if it werent for his **** comb i would show him, as it is he will be used for his muff, neck and foot (feathers on all 4) influence on those hens that lack 'oomph' in those places. since his pattern is not ideal i will breed him to non patterned hens. i just dont know how to offset his swept back comb since most females combs (like wattles) are so small it is hard to determine their genetic tendencies.





the best results for a blue mottled would actually be a lavender mottled -which would take 2 crossings, breed lav to mottled get black split to mottled and split to lav, breeding back these to each other should result in 'blue' mottled that breed true.


as for "In fact they put non-like together, as in Black and White D'uccles in one pen" (btw how do you know this-they never got back to me about my questions on the white genes they have in their line), the dom/recs genes in the white would allow for control of the result to yield the outcome -and since they dont offer blacks then that suggests 2X dom white yielding all white offspring, so what is wrong with that? thier white duccle hens tails are really poor -so there is a possibility production leghorns were used to develop them, mixing to a nice robust other coloured rooster with good form would help to make a better looking bird w/o risking unknown colours, just a little leaking can happen into the whites. i am practicing this same procedure -i have a sweet showy male with excellent cobby body form, small wattles, a beautiful full tail..etc BUT he is a brown black and his black shine is all purple! by breeding him to my white hens i can improve the whites body types and not risk the purple as well as breeding in some (hopefully) sweet personality (my white males are standoffish at best and outright crapheads otherwise).
 
paris_r said:
i am at the mercy of my information sources. some of my birds do originate from the ideal line and do behave like B/B/S in breeding, in fact i have a few of the GN's with occasional black or blue partial feathers (see pic below). outside the US a buff mottled is said to exist. i have never had one to breed so i dont know if they are true, but if they were different than splash they would breed true and not fade if crossed, right? ideal posts the stated genetics that
"
Blue Mille Fleur d'Uccle Bantams are a rare variety. They have the same genetic makeup as Mille Fleur d'Uccles; known as Belgian Blue Mille Fleur Bearded d'Uccle Bantams in the Standard, with the addition of the incompletely dominant autosomal Blue (Bl) gene.
Standard weights at maturity are male-26 oz, and hen-22 oz.
DNA-helix-icon.png
The blue (Bl) gene only has an effect on black plumage resulting in blue plumage when the blue gene is present in the heterozygous state (Bl bl). Other plumage colors are not affected by the blue gene. When blue (Bl bl) males are mated with blue (Bl bl) females, the ratio of colors produced is as follows: 1 black (bl bl), 2 blue (Bl bl) and 1 splash (Bl Bl) (white with a blue cast). Any blue variety ordered from Ideal Poultry may include chicks with black, blue or splash plumage patterns"

from the site http://www.edelras.nl/belgians/genetics.htm
"Colour Breeding Lines:
* Cuckoo, Black, Lavender
* Blue, Black, Splash
* Millefleur, Blue Millefleur, Golden Neck (Splash Millefleur)..."

using the chicken calculator (on the bottom section of the page i cited), i get the 3 phenotypes. from my understanding the mottled pattern is in mille fleurs, they just have a brown and black (or dilutions thereof) feather with a white tip instead of a solid colour feather with a white tip. GNs and Buff mottleds shouldnt be the same thing (see show standards below) since the GNs seem to have nearly all of the black from the mille fleur knocked out-so no gene production (or nearly so) for the black pigment, if they were true buff mottleds they would have white tipped hackle feathers and not like many of mine and have white feathers outlined in brown on the neck, tail and wings (corresponding to the black 'hotspots' in most milles). genetically a buff mottled should have no black pigment to knock out so this pattern of white is limited to the original true white tips, resulting in a phenotype similar (other than base colour) to this ( http://belgianduccle.hypermart.net/mottled.html ) , now the way they describe the GN phenotype does not meet with what i have since mine have the lacing i mentioned above on the neck ( http://belgianduccle.hypermart.net/goldenneck1.html ) - and my phenotype is what you would get by knocking out a poorly patterned mille fleur which has excessive black in the neck. according to the breed standards described for mottled vs GN in the site listed (sorry hyperlink doesnt work on cut and paste here) then the obvious difference in tail and primary /secondary wing feathers indicates that they are two different 'colour' patterns.

the second article on this page ( https://sites.google.com/site/belgianbantamclub/breedingbelgianbantams ) explains a bit more, so it does come down to geneotype vs phenotype - different genetics may result in a similar looking result. most people look at the results and one would have to do many test matings (requiring time and records) to determine the genes in their lines. it may be a case of 'if it walks like a duck' since most are concerned with the end result (phenotype), i will know more when the eggs from my pattern pens start being laid, and all i will know is what is going on in my lines. from what i have read though breeding GN to GN can result in more and more white and very pale birds and this may explain my washed out ones.

the b/b/s proof would be seeing true blue (not the lavender called blue) d'uccles and even though i know blues exist ( http://www.backyardpoultry.com/old/index.php?page=./breeds/bel.html ) i cant find any of the result of their crossing -a true splash bird. even this website ( http://www.britishbelgianbantamclub.com/gallery.html) doesnt show a splash ---so perhaps there is more to their genetics. all i can do is let you know the results of my breedings (when they start to lay)

here is a pic of one of my GN's showing the splash influence (not all have this and less so in the females-but they have less black to 'loose' than the males). if it werent for his **** comb i would show him, as it is he will be used for his muff, neck and foot (feathers on all 4) influence on those hens that lack 'oomph' in those places. since his pattern is not ideal i will breed him to non patterned hens. i just dont know how to offset his swept back comb since most females combs (like wattles) are so small it is hard to determine their genetic tendencies.





the best results for a blue mottled would actually be a lavender mottled -which would take 2 crossings, breed lav to mottled get black split to mottled and split to lav, breeding back these to each other should result in 'blue' mottled that breed true.


as for "In fact they put non-like together, as in Black and White D'uccles in one pen" (btw how do you know this-they never got back to me about my questions on the white genes they have in their line), the dom/recs genes in the white would allow for control of the result to yield the outcome -and since they dont offer blacks then that suggests 2X dom white yielding all white offspring, so what is wrong with that? thier white duccle hens tails are really poor -so there is a possibility production leghorns were used to develop them, mixing to a nice robust other coloured rooster with good form would help to make a better looking bird w/o risking unknown colours, just a little leaking can happen into the whites. i am practicing this same procedure -i have a sweet showy male with excellent cobby body form, small wattles, a beautiful full tail..etc BUT he is a brown black and his black shine is all purple! by breeding him to my white hens i can improve the whites body types and not risk the purple as well as breeding in some (hopefully) sweet personality (my white males are standoffish at best and outright crapheads otherwise).
Click to expand...
We are all at the mercy of our information, unless anyone happens to be a geneticist which i will be happy to admit i am far from lol.

As for the no buff mottled in the US....i will tell you a secret lol. Buff Mottleds are in the US, a Golden Neck is a Buff Mottled.
Buff Mottled is Mille Fluer Diluted by White Dom
Just as Porcelain is Mille Fluer Diluted by Lavendar
As soon as most breeders in the Us hear the term Buff Mottled their first response is "no buff mottleds in the US" well yes and no....we dont called them buff mottleds but they are. Other non-US countries have the same golden necks and called them buff mottled or use the terms buff mottled and golden neck interchangably.

The problem in the Us is we have 2 color types we call Golden Neck
Buff background....white mottle
White backround.....buff mottle(i know, i know mottle'ing is white only in D'uccle but the true mottle part is not the buff it is the white on the end of the buff feathers, which you cant see because the bird is white so i just call it buff mottle otherwise people seem to wanna know how you can tell it is white mottle on a white bird and does that mean white D'uccles are actually mottled etc.)

So the two "colors" of Golden Necks in the US is why we dont call them Buff Mottled here which is a much more precise name for the buff backround variety. Honestlly if we just called them White Mottled and Buff mottled life would be simplier for breeders and show judges.

You can keep Golden necks from fading out so much if you stay away from breeding the Buff Mottle to the White Mottle and make sure you breed the white Mottle out of your line. The white mottled carries atleast 1 white dilution gene...so breed a white mottled(GN) to a buff mottled(GN) and you end up with a washed out bird because they are carrying white.

(i have to skip on explaining anymore of this today i have to go home...from work lol...hard worker i am eh
wink.png
)

as for "In fact they put non-like together, as in Black and White D'uccles in one pen" (btw how do you know this-they never got back to me about my questions on the white genes they have in their line) i know someone who used to work there. No they dont sell black but ask yourself why? In their own words and yours echoing them....their blues carry B/B/S...breeding results in 1 Black, 2 Blue, 1 Splash. So what do they do with all those blacks? Hide them under Dom white.

The problem is less so in the black and white pairing and more so in other lines like when you order Golden necks and they make odd blue chicks. Hope that answers some of the questions.

BTW where were you seeing that SOP listed on the links you gave? i couldnt find a SOP specific to any color on those pages.
 
well for the first part-their 'blues' you obviously arent referring to their self blue, so i am not sure, as i said i have yet to see a 'real' splash d'uccle anywhere, but is it because no one puts the effort into it? could it be linked to a loci near a lethal gene and thus none ever live?? dunno, most people want the millies anyways and to even have more than an additional porcelain offered is rare so i give them kudos for their spectrum. the aussie article mentioned that the breed source of the white gene that ko'd the black made a difference in breeding results. but again i am not sure and it may be that what is out there has multiple genes competing with each other, so it is really going to be up to pairing types and comparing results, but this would be limited to what is in my stock. i was just looking at AI techniques, i could try that -so an isolated hen could be identified (i have GN, blue millies and normal millies right now covered by a porcelain roo). the AI benefit is that my best hens wont be subjected to feather damage and i can groom them for show and yet still have them produce fertile eggs.

i am unsure of the BTW question about SOP, my source was those links-are they not working? or are you asking about their reference in application to american show standards? it is an american club that hosts it. is that the question?....
http://belgianduccle.hypermart.net/

i am getting my PhD at A&M in molecular biology, but chicken genes are so complex and they are not in my area of interest (regeneration) so to dedicate time to learning the complex genetics is not worth my time right now since it is quite like learning a new language with all the codes-and that is just basic Mendellian stuff not including the complexities of epigenetic effects. i can only relate to what i know about gene expression and timing (timing BTW is how zebra species differ in patterns), and my GN line responds like black pigment ko'd (with occasional black/blue feathers) -but again i have not bred them in controlled and statistically significant amounts. this is my first year with black mottled so i have yet to get results to compare. my chickens were born around May, so i am expecting another shift in patterns when they do their second molt ,but they are already breeding. I had to give away a lot of males because they had too many solid white feathers, even in clusters, especially around the head. i gave away most all but 1 GN rooster from last years breeding based on the standards on that link and expecting to compensate with another colour with less black to loose.

can you suggest a pairing you think would answer this question? i could create a specific pen for those. i have lots of GN hens (10 i think), 1 good (pictured above) GN rooster and another i am not sure is capable of breeding since he is lame (have yet to set the few eggs from his cage). i have 2.2 black mottleds, and 3 blue millies, one porcelain roo, and lots of normal millies (aside from my whites, lavs, bbrs-including one hen who is completely black). i can toe punch chicks to track them in the future.
 
For the Millie x white cross: your white was dominant white so the bird pictured is dominant white with Columbian leakage.
 
As for the splash conversation. I have splash d'uccles. The mottleds above aren't splashes. The " golden neck splash" is a blue Millie splash. They look like golden necks since the blue on the blue Millie turns white. Golden neck is a solid buff bird with the mottling gene. The other pics are just black mottled and blue mottled
 

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