Ducks shunning former Toulouse Goose leader

[gryeyes]

I kept two Toulouse ganders in my flock of chickens and Cayuga ducks for almost two years, thinking I had a pair... I ordered a sexed pair of goslings from Ideal Poultry, named them Kate and William. One died when they weren't very old (still in the kiddie pool "brooder" with the "packing peanut RIR chicks) and I mistakenly thought it was William. I found a young gander - named him Angus - on Craig's List because it was too late to order any more goslings. Angus and "Kate" grew up together, but as time went on, "Kate" became very duck-centric and assisted duck mommas with new ducklings they hatched. Angus preferred to spend time with the chicken flock. No goose eggs. Then "Kate" and Angus began to spar and chase each other, mostly due to "Kate" not wanting Angus anywhere near "her" duck flock. I finally realized "Kate" had been William all this time... They never did real damage to each other, just a lot of honking challenges, some flapping, neck-wrestling and some chasing. I think Toulouse are far less aggressive than other breeds of geese. Anyway, this past Spring, I ordered three sexed goslings and named them Zoe, Dora and Ariel. "Kate" took over their rearing when they were old enough to join the flock and I changed his name to Caleb. Angus is still "chicken-centric" because Caleb doesn't want Angus to get too chummy with HIS three girls. They're still too young for mating, but Caleb has recently started to court them instead of just protect and raise them. He's partial to Zoe. I am hoping Angus will be able to have at least one of the girls for his own partner, come Spring. I just wanted to provide an example of two, mature Toulouse ganders co-existing fairly peaceably for well over a year. Cayugas are a pretty large duck, but I felt it was best to give the ganders some ladies of their own type before Kate/Caleb decided he would challenge the Cayuga drakes for any of their girls.

 

[Miss Lydia]

Anything to report?

what did you find out?

 

[newduckmama]

Hi Miss Lydia,

it's been quite the 24 hours! After all that anticipation with picking up our new mate for Goosy last night, the breeder called to cancel our visit as he'd had a busier than usual day and it was getting dark out.

He rescheduled us for pickup this evening but my partner was so annoyed (me too) we woke up early and found another breeder not too much farther away who had a Toulouse goose and two ganders for sale. We drove up there lickety split without Goosy and once we had a look at his ganders and the goose we realized our Goosy is indeed a goose and not a gander. All three of his geese were MASSIVE compared to our Goosy and we were shocked to learn they were all born a month after Goosy came into the world. They were extremely calm and relaxed when handled and not a sound came out of the goose's mouth during the drive home. The gander was pretty quiet too but for a few shrieks towards the end when we think he was getting impatient with being in the crate. For the most part the two of them just watched the scenery through the window looking excited by the road trip. We introduced them to Goosy by setting them up in an adjoining but separate pen from Goosy. The gander hissed at Goosy once then settled down to drink and eat chow with his girlfriend. Goosy was agitated and clung to the wire fence most of the time calling to us to get her out of there. She may have been intimidated by their size but she and they both looked fairly curious of the other though I wouldn't say they were friendly at all. I'm thinking this integration may well take some time. The ducks and the troublemaking drakes got a good look at the paired geese and most seemed indifferent to our newest members. It will be interesting to see how RB and Choco react to them when they are released outside the pen. We just put them in for the night - ducks separated from the geese and Goosy in with Buff and both of them separated from the new pair. (Buff, Goosy's former friend, seems to warming up to her again. We've been keeping them together in the same pen for the last few nights and their bond seems to have re-cemented).

My partner may go back and collect the original gander we were to get from the breeder who cancelled on us but we're going to see how this pair and Goosy integrate first. My partner is also thinking of giving RB away to a good home as he is really the ringleader causing the trouble. I'm not of that mind yet -- want to see how things go. I'm actually leaving in a little while to go visit my parents for an indefinite period of time a few hours away so my partner will have to balance out this social network as best he can until I get back. Wish him luck -- hopefully everything will smooth out for everyone with few ruffled feathers from either side.

That's the update for now -- will let you know how things have progressed when I get home. Thanks for asking -- I really appreciate all your suggestions and your help -- Goosy does too

 

[Miss Lydia]

Hi Miss Lydia,

it's been quite the 24 hours! After all that anticipation with picking up our new mate for Goosy last night, the breeder called to cancel our visit as he'd had a busier than usual day and it was getting dark out.

He rescheduled us for pickup this evening but my partner was so annoyed (me too) we woke up early and found another breeder not too much farther away who had a Toulouse goose and two ganders for sale. We drove up there lickety split without Goosy and once we had a look at his ganders and the goose we realized our Goosy is indeed a goose and not a gander. All three of his geese were MASSIVE compared to our Goosy and we were shocked to learn they were all born a month after Goosy came into the world. They were extremely calm and relaxed when handled and not a sound came out of the goose's mouth during the drive home. The gander was pretty quiet too but for a few shrieks towards the end when we think he was getting impatient with being in the crate. For the most part the two of them just watched the scenery through the window looking excited by the road trip. We introduced them to Goosy by setting them up in an adjoining but separate pen from Goosy. The gander hissed at Goosy once then settled down to drink and eat chow with his girlfriend. Goosy was agitated and clung to the wire fence most of the time calling to us to get her out of there. She may have been intimidated by their size but she and they both looked fairly curious of the other though I wouldn't say they were friendly at all. I'm thinking this integration may well take some time. The ducks and the troublemaking drakes got a good look at the paired geese and most seemed indifferent to our newest members. It will be interesting to see how RB and Choco react to them when they are released outside the pen. We just put them in for the night - ducks separated from the geese and Goosy in with Buff and both of them separated from the new pair. (Buff, Goosy's former friend, seems to warming up to her again. We've been keeping them together in the same pen for the last few nights and their bond seems to have re-cemented).

My partner may go back and collect the original gander we were to get from the breeder who cancelled on us but we're going to see how this pair and Goosy integrate first. My partner is also thinking of giving RB away to a good home as he is really the ringleader causing the trouble. I'm not of that mind yet -- want to see how things go. I'm actually leaving in a little while to go visit my parents for an indefinite period of time a few hours away so my partner will have to balance out this social network as best he can until I get back. Wish him luck -- hopefully everything will smooth out for everyone with few ruffled feathers from either side.

That's the update for now -- will let you know how things have progressed when I get home. Thanks for asking -- I really appreciate all your suggestions and your help -- Goosy does too

You know what I don't want to be a bearer of bad news and hopefully it will work out, but sometimes bringing in a mated pair can cause the one goose[Goosy] from being accepted. And if you bring in another gander there is the possibility of one of the ganders taking both of the girls. I hope I am wrong and someone that has actually done this will come in and give you some better advise. I would just hate it for Goosy if this didn't work out and she is still left out. It is great news that her and the Buff have bonded again.

 

[newduckmama]

Hello again -- it's been awhile since my last update but I've been back at home with the ducks and geese for a few days now and have been observing the interactions between Goosy and the mated pair, as well as those between the 3 geese and the ducks. Where to start?

Over the last two weeks it seems Goosy and the pair, Fritz & Olga, have become fairly chummy as compared to Day 1 when we brought F & O home. They free range together during the day, separate but never far from the ducks and overnight we house Goosy with Buff and one of our Cayuga ducks to try to maintain the relations between ducks and geese. Fritz and Olga are in the pen adjacent to Goosy and the other two ducks but they seem a bit disturbed that Goosy is not housed with them as she is their constant companion during the days. RB is housed with his second in command, Choco, and two of the younger ducks, Molly and Little Cay. At night all is fine as each of the rivals are in separate pens and without RB's direct influence, all the ducks get along just fine with Goosy.

I wish I could report things are completely hunky-dory but we still have some challenges to overcome due to the introduction of Fritz and Olga.

On the upside, Goosy has companions and appears to be back in the leader role as she's the one generally out in front when leading them around the yard. Also, she seems to understand now that she is a goose rather than a duck and has, at last, her own kind to run with. On the downside, RB continues to chase Goosy and has pecked at both Fritz & Olga on occasion. Where I had hoped F & O's size would keep him in line and away from the geese in general, that has not turned out to be the case. Surprisingly (to me anyway) despite his smaller size, all three of the geese will run when he goes after them. He's a real poop-disturber, this one. Between RB's focus on keeping the geese away from him and the other ducks, and Fritz & Olga's unease with having any of the ducks near them (they'll peck at them - and Goosy too when sharing a food bowl) our former happy little family of integrated ducks and geese together has broken up. The geese hang out in a trio and the ducks hang out with RB at the helm. Buff, to his credit, can often be seen acting as a little diplomat between the two groups. Sometimes he'll run with his drake buddies, RB and Choco, and the three girls and sometimes he'll try to hang with Goosy but Fritz and Olga make it clear they don't want Buff fraternizing too closely with them or Goosy. Poor Buff...divided loyalties but I admire him for trying to bridge the divide between the two groups.

As mates, Fritz and Olga are never too far apart from each other and oftentimes I can see that Goosy is the third wheel foraging some distance away from them on her own so over the last few days it has made me smile to see Olga leaving Fritz behind to join Goosy so they can forage together. From what I've observed, Fritz's attitude towards Goosy is primarily one of tolerance so far. He seems super protective of Olga and hasn't decided whether or not he wants Goosy getting too close to his mate. Olga seems to enjoy hanging out with Goosy - if Fritz allows it, they may get to form a real sisterhood kind of bond. I hope that happens. Honestly, I miss the all-for-one, one-for-all relationship Goosy and the ducks enjoyed when we first brought them all home. RB seizing the leadership role from Goosy (and the subsequent introduction of two new geese none of them grew up with) has completely changed the dynamic. I am still keen on getting Goosy her own gander mate but after this integration experience introducing Fritz and Olga, I wonder how much more another new addition will shake things up. My partner is still keen on placing RB in another home because of his continued aggression towards the geese. I have to admit it is probably the best solution to maintain peace and not have Goosy continually stressed but...I remain reluctant to let him go.

I'll keep watching and hoping Goosy becomes more and more integrated with the Toulouse pair but, in any event, I'll continue to search for a gander mate she can call her own. Will Fritz freak at the appearance of another male Toulouse on the scene? Probably. Sigh -- wish us luck!

 

[Miss Lydia]

Hello again -- it's been awhile since my last update but I've been back at home with the ducks and geese for a few days now and have been observing the interactions between Goosy and the mated pair, as well as those between the 3 geese and the ducks. Where to start?

Over the last two weeks it seems Goosy and the pair, Fritz & Olga, have become fairly chummy as compared to Day 1 when we brought F & O home. They free range together during the day, separate but never far from the ducks and overnight we house Goosy with Buff and one of our Cayuga ducks to try to maintain the relations between ducks and geese. Fritz and Olga are in the pen adjacent to Goosy and the other two ducks but they seem a bit disturbed that Goosy is not housed with them as she is their constant companion during the days. RB is housed with his second in command, Choco, and two of the younger ducks, Molly and Little Cay. At night all is fine as each of the rivals are in separate pens and without RB's direct influence, all the ducks get along just fine with Goosy.

I wish I could report things are completely hunky-dory but we still have some challenges to overcome due to the introduction of Fritz and Olga.

On the upside, Goosy has companions and appears to be back in the leader role as she's the one generally out in front when leading them around the yard. Also, she seems to understand now that she is a goose rather than a duck and has, at last, her own kind to run with. On the downside, RB continues to chase Goosy and has pecked at both Fritz & Olga on occasion. Where I had hoped F & O's size would keep him in line and away from the geese in general, that has not turned out to be the case. Surprisingly (to me anyway) despite his smaller size, all three of the geese will run when he goes after them. He's a real poop-disturber, this one. Between RB's focus on keeping the geese away from him and the other ducks, and Fritz & Olga's unease with having any of the ducks near them (they'll peck at them - and Goosy too when sharing a food bowl) our former happy little family of integrated ducks and geese together has broken up. The geese hang out in a trio and the ducks hang out with RB at the helm. Buff, to his credit, can often be seen acting as a little diplomat between the two groups. Sometimes he'll run with his drake buddies, RB and Choco, and the three girls and sometimes he'll try to hang with Goosy but Fritz and Olga make it clear they don't want Buff fraternizing too closely with them or Goosy. Poor Buff...divided loyalties but I admire him for trying to bridge the divide between the two groups.

As mates, Fritz and Olga are never too far apart from each other and oftentimes I can see that Goosy is the third wheel foraging some distance away from them on her own so over the last few days it has made me smile to see Olga leaving Fritz behind to join Goosy so they can forage together. From what I've observed, Fritz's attitude towards Goosy is primarily one of tolerance so far. He seems super protective of Olga and hasn't decided whether or not he wants Goosy getting too close to his mate. Olga seems to enjoy hanging out with Goosy - if Fritz allows it, they may get to form a real sisterhood kind of bond. I hope that happens. Honestly, I miss the all-for-one, one-for-all relationship Goosy and the ducks enjoyed when we first brought them all home. RB seizing the leadership role from Goosy (and the subsequent introduction of two new geese none of them grew up with) has completely changed the dynamic. I am still keen on getting Goosy her own gander mate but after this integration experience introducing Fritz and Olga, I wonder how much more another new addition will shake things up. My partner is still keen on placing RB in another home because of his continued aggression towards the geese. I have to admit it is probably the best solution to maintain peace and not have Goosy continually stressed but...I remain reluctant to let him go.

I'll keep watching and hoping Goosy becomes more and more integrated with the Toulouse pair but, in any event, I'll continue to search for a gander mate she can call her own. Will Fritz freak at the appearance of another male Toulouse on the scene? Probably. Sigh -- wish us luck!

I wish you all the best in this saga, if it just wasn't for the hormones getting in the way every one could live happily ever after. But if Goosy seems happy with the set up with fritz and Olga and he accepts her when breeding season begins[a lot of folks will have trio's together because a gander will accept 2 geese] I'd hold off on getting another gander till you see. As for RB and his dominant role, I have a Muscovy drake who rules the roost around here both my geese are afraid of him. My geese have their own relationship together and my ducks are in 4 separate clans because I have 4 drakes. They all live together as one flock during the day but they could never sleep together in the same house at night. Just the way of the water fowl.

 

[RURU]

Newduckmama I have read your updates and sounds like RB is going to be that way no matter what you do. Him chasing Goosey and stressing her is not fair for Goosey. I had drakes like that when I had ducks and boy did they get on my nerves.... They chased my beautiful Ginger around and 3 of them tried to breed her. So I found them homes real fast...
Here is my Ginger.







They were tearing all her feather's out!!! I placed all but one duck drake which we have now. I just call him Ducky.

Here is Ducky in the middle of the geese. One is not the same as the other's. If Ducky gets to close to any of them they put their head down and chase him off out of their space.

 

[newduckmama]

I wish you all the best in this saga, if it just wasn't for the hormones getting in the way every one could live happily ever after. But if Goosy seems happy with the set up with fritz and Olga and he accepts her when breeding season begins[a lot of folks will have trio's together because a gander will accept 2 geese] I'd hold off on getting another gander till you see. As for RB and his dominant role, I have a Muscovy drake who rules the roost around here both my geese are afraid of him. My geese have their own relationship together and my ducks are in 4 separate clans because I have 4 drakes. They all live together as one flock during the day but they could never sleep together in the same house at night. Just the way of the water fowl.

Thank you Miss Lydia for the good advice! I was a bit taken aback when Fritz and Olga didn't immediately take to Goosy and my panic and love for my dear, sweet Goosy made me want to find her a gander of her own asap. Now, after two weeks I think you were right on the money in suggesting I hold off on adding another gander. I am very pleased to report that Goosy, Olga and Fritz have bonded to an excellent degree in that they forage together (with Goosy leading the way for the newbies!) and seem annoyed when I separate them at night in the pens. We will definitely not be getting another gander for now as Fritz seems quite friendly to Goosy and I'm sure he wouldn't be opposed to having her to himself with Olga's blessing. Olga and Goosy enjoy each other's company and often leave Fritz behind to wander off together in the fields. Other times it is Goosy and Fritz lingering together before being penned for the night while Olga goes on ahead so I'm thrilled about that - Yay!! I pen Goosy with Buff and the other ducks overnight because this was her first family and now that RB's no longer in the picture I want to be sure to Goosy remains a part of their group. Buff and Goosy still enjoy a closeness that warms my heart so while Goosy and Buff lead their own groups and forage alongside each other at night I let them catch up in the pen together. Fritz and Olga sleep together in the adjoining pen. Things are settling down nicely.

One of the reasons for that is that RB is no longer in residence. We gave him away to a sweet little girl and her dad this past Sunday. They were delighted to add him to their Muscovy group though we did warn them he was a handful. They drove a 3 hour round trip to pick him up and seemed willing to take on the challenge. Now I was originally on the fence about giving RB up but, as RuRu mentioned in her post, it became clear there was nothing we were going to be able to do with him to change his behaviour towards Goosy. Believe me, we tried but...hormones will be hormones and RB seemed hellbent on causing stress whenever, wherever he could with all three geese but Goosy was his favourite target. No more.

Ever since RB went to his new home Goosy, Fritz, Olga and the ducks are all getting along again...well...Fritz and Olga will still peck at the ducks if they are underfoot but other than that they are all enjoying each other's company and we couldn't be happier. As I mentioned, we will leave things the way they are for now - no new geese or ducks for the moment as going through the experience of having to integrate new members into the fold and having to say goodbye to one original member has been eye opening and saddening. We'll let things settle and remain stable for now. My partner wants to get a pygmy goat in the spring. Uh-oh. I'm not sure I want to go down that road but we'll see.

Thank you again for your advice and suggestions - it has all been very helpful!! Can you tell me what you'd recommend for keeping the coop warm and water from freezing. We're reading all we can to prepare to winterize and my partner doesn't like the idea of using heaters in the water pails nor using a lightbulb in the coop. I'm leaning towards using a heating pad for the water. Any top recommendations would be great!

 

[newduckmama]

Newduckmama I have read your updates and sounds like RB is going to be that way no matter what you do. Him chasing Goosey and stressing her is not fair for Goosey. I had drakes like that when I had ducks and boy did they get on my nerves.... They chased my beautiful Ginger around and 3 of them tried to breed her. So I found them homes real fast...
Here is my Ginger.







They were tearing all her feather's out!!! I placed all but one duck drake which we have now. I just call him Ducky.

Here is Ducky in the middle of the geese. One is not the same as the other's. If Ducky gets to close to any of them they put their head down and chase him off out of their space.

RuRu, first let me say your Ginger is gorgeous!! They all are - such beautiful coloring and those feathers make me want to pet them so badly I feel a better about having to give RB up after reading your post, thank you. RB was really a nuisance with his attitude towards the geese and I think we did the right thing in the end for everyone involved. He was so full of moxie and bravado and not scared of anything - such a big personality but as you rightly pointed out it was not fair for Goosy. I hope he is having a grand old time where he's gone to, I really do. I felt a bit guilty separating him from the only family he's known from 5 weeks old but I couldn't bear Goosy's suffering and stress any longer. It's hard choosing one over the other, isn't it? but easier when you know you are helping to protect those who can't or won't fight back. Blessings to you and all your feathered friends!

 

[RURU]

Newduckmama glad to be of some help to you about RB. But when you have a drake that aggressive it never changes. It was really funny because the person who came here wanted aggressive drakes like that for his female ducks. So I got happy getting them into a place where they wanted them that way! So all worked out well for me and my Ginger.....

Thank you for the complement on my Sebastopol's I just love them so very much....