Dying left and right!

[260906]

What are you feeding? Just laying pellet? Are they raised on that feed? Could very well be the problem. Layer feed is for actively laying birds ONLY. The high levels of calcium can be fatal to males, young birds, and hens that aren't in lay.

Junebuggena, thanks for your input. I started the chicks on Dumor chick starter crumbles, changed to Dumor grower at the appropriate age, and was beginning a slow transition from the grower crumbles to layer pellets at the time the sickness started (because the chicks we hatched were approaching 6 months old). This is what I've done every time we've hatched chicks over the years and never had a problem before.

Hi

So sorry to hear about your losses.
I would be interested in seeing your post mortem photos if you want to PM them to me.

Thanks, Barbara. I will send you a PM.

 

[rebrascora]

Hi again. As per my PMs, please post the photos on the thread below so that other more experienced people may view and comment and also perhaps improve their knowledge from them.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...xxx-graphic-necropsy-photos/320#post_17875638

For others following this thread there appears to me to be a tumour which has displaced the left lung and further tumorous growths around the heart as well as dark distended caeca....Just my humble opinion based on limited personal experience, but lends weight to probable Marek's diagnosis.

 

[Eggcessive]

You did a good job with the necropsy. I have not done many, so I am not much help. It's very good of Rebascora to help you. There are some good photos of Mareks disease and lymphoid leukosis, another tumor causing diseases, and their affects on organs if you look some. Atlas of Avian Diseases is a good source from Cornell. On their site, you can select the disease and look at both clinical signs and gross lesions of organs. Hopefully others will chime in who have done some necropsies.

 

[260906]

Thanks, Egccessive. While searching the atlas you mentioned, I discovered a link to a set of instructional videos on how to do a necropsy exam. Here's a link to the first one:

There are 10 videos in the series. I will try to find time to watch these soon, as I'm afraid I will have the opportunity to do another necropsy very soon.

 

[260906]

A pathologist from the ALPC called.

The pullet they necropsied was NEGATIVE for avian influenza, mycoplasma, and salmonella.

The fecal float showed "a few parasites," but he said nothing that would have caused these deaths.

They were able to culture E. coli in the heart, liver, and lower GI tract.

There are no slides returned yet that he could view them under the microscope. When I told him about the flock, he said he will test for Mareks because of the one hen having balance issues before it died.


From what I've read so far about Mareks, it sounds terrifying! The word "E. coli" spooks me, too. Is it safe to handle the chickens and eat their eggs if they carry E. coli?

 

[rebrascora]

Quote:
I've had it in my flock for 3 years now. My experience is that it's not as bad as most of what you read. I hatched 54 broody reared chicks last summer in my flock that has been exposed to Marek's and only 3 of them so far have shown signs of it. Sadly the two pullets deteriorated to the point I had to euthanize but the little bantam cockerel that I wasn't fussed about....I have no use for him and not even any meat on him to make him worth culling..... made a full recovery, even though he was unable to walk for nearly a week. The only reason I didn't cull him was to keep my lame pullet company. He was more paralysed than her and I didn't expect him to make it but she went down hill suddenly and he miraculously got better and is now sexually harassing my large fowl older ladies! That was about 10 weeks ago and most of my pullet chicks have now come into lay, so pretty much over the prime period for an outbreak now. Of course every loss to it is heart breaking especially when you have been giving them supportive care for weeks, but it is not all doom and gloom by a long chalk. I think I lost 5 chicks to it the first year and 2 or 3 the year after, but considering how many chicks I've raised it's a pretty low percentage.

As regards E coli, I believe that it's presence is pretty common in poultry and probably other animals but it's really only when things get out of balance perhaps due to an infection or compromised immune system that it multiplies and becomes an issue. As long as you are reasonably careful about washing your hands after doing chicken chores and before eating then it should be fine and giving eggs a good scrub with anti bac soap before you use them.

I wonder if you could email your photos to the pathologist you spoke to and see if he will give an off the cuff opinion from them. The pathologist should also be able to advise you regarding the E coli and any potential risks.... always better to get a professional opinion if you are anxious.

Do you have any more sick or have things settled down a bit? I find it goes in fits and starts with weeks or months in between, but autumn/winter is the prime time for attacks. I very rarely get any develop it in summer and never spring, so with a bit of luck you should be over the worst of it for this year..

 

[Lizardlicks]

I was reading up on Marek's as well, and from what I understand, there are different strains of it, termed "hot" and "cold". Hot strains kill fast, death can occur in as little as 10 days after exposure, which no other virus that we currently know of has that kind of time frame, not even the dreaded Ebola. Cold strains can take weeks, or even months after exposure to kill, but has a lower rate of fatality. There were recent studies in 2015 that appear to demonstrate widespread use of the vaccine in the poultry industry may have bread the super hot version of the bug. The vaccine is "leaky" meaning that unlike many standardized human vaccines, the virus is not killed outright, and it is allowed time to mutate. Vaccinated birds have a higher survival rate and lower risk of catching, but the virus stays alive inside them and evolves while they try to fight it off and they end up becoming carriers, infecting any unvaccinated birds with the hot version of the virus.

If you have a flock of mixed vaccinated and unvaccinated birds that were exposed to the virus, the vaccinated ones could be vectors spreading it to the unvaccinate in the flock. It would seem the best thing to do would be to keep only vaccinated birds OR only unvaccinated, only buy from local, trusted sources and be incredibly tight with quarantine procedures.

In my experience with animal keeping, literally everything has E coliin its digestive tract. It's only a problem if you don't practice basic hygiene protocols.

 

[260906]

I've had it in my flock for 3 years now. My experience is that it's not as bad as most of what you read....

I wonder if you could email your photos to the pathologist you spoke to and see if he will give an off the cuff opinion from them. The pathologist should also be able to advise you regarding the E coli and any potential risks.... always better to get a professional opinion if you are anxious.

Do you have any more sick or have things settled down a bit? I find it goes in fits and starts with weeks or months in between, but autumn/winter is the prime time for attacks. I very rarely get any develop it in summer and never spring, so with a bit of luck you should be over the worst of it for this year..

Thanks for the encouraging info. I really hope it isn't Marek's. As far as the photos, I can't seem to talk to the same person twice and did not manage to even catch the name of the man who called today to see if it matched the name I was given before. I do have one contact email for them; I may send them and see if they will pass it on to the correct person.

No one is showing signs of sickness at the moment, except our oldest hen (almost 6 years) wasn't holding her tail up high today. She does that some days, though. I think I'm just paranoid after losing a third of my chickens. The rooster is the only one left from the ones I bought last summer, and he was quite perky today.

I was reading up on Marek's as well, .... Vaccinated birds have a higher survival rate and lower risk of catching, but the virus stays alive inside them and evolves while they try to fight it off and they end up becoming carriers, infecting any unvaccinated birds with the hot version of the virus.

If you have a flock of mixed vaccinated and unvaccinated birds that were exposed to the virus, the vaccinated ones could be vectors spreading it to the unvaccinate in the flock. It would seem the best thing to do would be to keep only vaccinated birds OR only unvaccinated, only buy from local, trusted sources and be incredibly tight with quarantine procedures.

In my experience with animal keeping, literally everything has E coliin its digestive tract. It's only a problem if you don't practice basic hygiene protocols.

People are good at creating as many problems as they fix sometimes! The world had plenty of viruses and diseases that were bad enough without creating "super" ones.

As far as I know, none of the chickens we have were ever vaccinated for anything. I was trying to be more careful/responsible this time, and it seems to have backfired! I used to get chickens from random people at the local sale barn. This year, I found a breeder, went to her property to see how they were raised, heard many good recommendations about her chickens, etc. People have shown her chickens and won prizes before, so I was wondering...Do show chickens have to be tested for Mareks before they can be entered in a contest? If so, how could her chickens carry it? I don't know, I'm just chasing random ideas at this point.

 

[rebrascora]

No, chickens don't have to be tested for Marek's when showing although obviously one isn't going to show a sick bird if you are serious about showing and your reputation, but showing does mean that the birds are at increased risk of picking up the virus because they are exposed to so many other birds from different flocks. Marek's is extremely common and widespread and many people bury their head in the sand and pretend they don't have it or don't look too closely into why a bird died. If breeders are "known" to have Marek's they are effectively finished, so it is not in their interests to declare it or let on that there might be a problem. Not that I am saying the breeder you bought from is covering it up but there is a lot of pressure to do so within the industry. NPIP certification doesn't cover Marek's for some reason.... perhaps because of the cost/difficulty of testing for it in live birds....or perhaps because the vaccine gives a positive result....I'm not sure about this, just speculating.

Anyway, I see from the necropsy thread that someone else is of a similar mind to me about your photos, unfortunately.

 

[260906]

As if we didn't have enough going on in the chicken pen right now -- we had another new experience tonight. One of our older hens had an egg break inside her.

I quickly searched the internet and, of course, found great info about it on BYC (THANKS EVERYONE!). I got cool water with a bit of apple cider vinegar and used a syringe to flush our her hind end. As I was about to begin, she started passing an egg membrane -- yay! After the first flush, I lubricated a gloved finger with olive oil to examine inside her cloaca and found nothing -- yay again! I flushed her out a second time, anyway.

I rinsed her dirty feathers off as well as I could and used a hair dryer to fluff her back up some. (She's the first hen we've ever had who did NOT like getting a blow dryer spa treatment. That was fun.

)

She greedily ate a mixture of oatmeal, yogurt, olive oil, water, and a little Poly-Vi-Sol. We set her up in a 3X4 foot cage with a roost, a heat lamp, a few layer pellets, and water with a bit of apple cider vinegar mixed in. She was happily nibbling grass and preening her feathers when we left her.

I'll do more research and see what we need to do for her in the morning. I read about feeding her scrambled eggs and something...can't remember. I may research in the morning, since I'm too tired to think clearly at the moment. Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks, again, for all the great info on this site!